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downvoters: Sorry if this question was offensive; I'm asking about if the "apple is like a startup" trend continues into developers being able to choose what ki

by blhack 16y ago

downvoters: Sorry if this question was offensive; I'm asking about if the "apple is like a startup" trend continues into developers being able to choose what kind of tools they want to work with. My complaining about my MBP isn't meant as a critique of apple, I'm just saying that if it was me I would probably choose a linux machine, not a mac. I apologize for the off-topic question, but is anybody here a coder for apple (or has been in the past?)? Are you allowed to use a non-apple computer if you work at apple? I just got a macbook pro over the weekend (my first mac) and it seems like they've really gone out of their way to make this as difficult as possible to write code on. No page up/down keys...no dedicated delete key, no home/end keys...it seems like the UI is designed around the mouse. Alt-Tabbing seems really neutered in comparison to the gnome/kde/windows equivalents...and the solution that is offered is the expose' key (which works, but involves using the mouse). Is there just a steep learning curve? Don't get me wrong, the machine is very pretty, but it seems like the type of work that geeks do was ignored when they designed this laptop (like having no dedicated right click key?) Obviously they were talking about apple being run like a startup in that the teams are small...one of the things that I see advertised on some job postings for coding jobs is that there is a LOT of flexibility on what your workstation is...is it like this at apple?

jacobolus 16y ago
http://www.hcs.harvard.edu/~jrus/site/cocoa-text.html http://www.hcs.harvard.edu/~jrus/site/cocoa-text.html Also, in Exposé it's possible to tab between applications and use the arrow keys to select windows. As for right click: on an Apple trackpad, two finger click works much better for me than right click (either tap with two fingers or click with the thumb while two other fingers are on the trackpad) ever did on a windows laptop. YMMV. FWIW, I also prefer the Mac ⌘⇥ (command-tab) behavior. You can drag stuff in and out of command-tab, you can hide or quit applications from it (Q and H keys), you can use either keyboard or mouse (or scroll wheel) to select apps, etc. I think you’re mostly just unfamiliar with it... which is perfectly natural, but you might try phrasing your question in a less aggressive manner.
- blhack 16y ago
  Hmm... Thank you. Honestly though, I was just generally curious about if apple devs are allowed to use non-apple computers.
  - wallflower 16y ago
    Not devs but it is rumored that deep in the inner sanctums of the product engineering/design labs there are PC workstations running 3D/CAD/CAM/CAE software.
  - DrJokepu 16y ago
    Well given that there are several pieces of Apple software that run on Windows (Safari, iTunes, QuickTime, etc) it would be strange if at least some developers didn't have access to Windows boxes. Although it's entirely possible that these run mostly on Apple hardware, surely they need "generic" PCs as well for testing.
- rimantas 16y ago
  See also this: http://support.apple.com/kb/ht3211 http://support.apple.com/kb/ht3211 You can configure some area on trackpad, clicking ther will register as right click (bottom right corner, for example).
philwelch 16y ago
There are chords you can use to replicate some of those functions in any Mac OS X text input field--command-up or command-down is top or bottom of block, command-left or command-right is left or right of line. Personally I just use vim--using the normal letter keys for navigation and jumping to insert mode is easier to me than chording or reaching over to the far reaches of the keyboard. If you're not vim-inclined, I'd use the Mac OS X chords.
rimantas 16y ago
Spend some time learning what you got there.
jsz0 16y ago
One of the first things you need to do is goto the Keyboard section of System Preferences and enable Full Keyboard Access for all controls. Makes OSX more keyboard friendly.
Locke1689 16y ago
To a certain extent you have to learn the "Apple" way of doing things. It does result in performance improvements (I think XCode's a pretty nice piece of software). That said, my preferred development environment is a UNIX terminal, vim, and a web browser, so I happen to see OS X as one of the best development platforms ("Get out of my way, don't make me worry about the system, and let me code!").
blasdel 16y ago
Anyone who really chafes with the UI model of OS X probably wouldn't apply to work in Software at Apple, and even if one did you'd probably get rejected for other reasons. If you're chafing on command-tab, try hitting its complement command-backtick As for tools, you can use whatever you think is best for the job, it's just that for anything that touches the GUI the best tool is going to be Obj-C/Cocoa. In other places, the HN mindset comes out to play pretty hardcore: The process sandboxing engine introduced in 10.5 is an embedded LISP Their CalDAV and Wiki Server implementations are in Python with Twisted They once shipped a desktop app written in Rails. Really. The iTMS backend is all Java, and at least formerly used WebObjects heavily For a while they had a bunch of GUI Java apps written with their Java/Cocoa bridge They've let motivated employees write Obj-C bridges for Perl, Python, and Ruby (x2) The guy that wrote two Ruby bridges is now doing a native Ruby implementation They've got at least 3 independent javascript frameworks shipping with webapps
- statictype 16y ago
  Anyone who really chafes with the UI model of OS X probably wouldn't apply to work in Software at Apple, I don't think very highly of OS X's Desktop UI but I doubt that would stop me from wanting to work at Apple. and even if one did you'd probably get rejected for other reasons. Such as?
commandar 16y ago
>Alt-Tabbing seems really neutered in comparison to the gnome/kde/windows equivalents...and the solution that is offered is the expose' key (which works, but involves using the mouse). I agree with a lot of your other points re: the keyboard layout, but FYI on this -- OS X is app-centric in its WM rather than window-centric. (Coincidentally, W7 has moved in this same direction with the Superbar). CMD-tab cycles through applications; once you've gotten to the application you want, use CMD-` to cycle through individual windows. It's a little bit weird at first, but once you get used to it, I honestly think it scales better for navigating large numbers of windows. HTH.

by blhack 16y ago

jacobolus 16y ago

http://www.hcs.harvard.edu/~jrus/site/cocoa-text.html http://www.hcs.harvard.edu/~jrus/site/cocoa-text.html Also, in Exposé it's possible to tab between applications and use the arrow keys to select windows. As for right click: on an Apple trackpad, two finger click works much better for me than right click (either tap with two fingers or click with the thumb while two other fingers are on the trackpad) ever did on a windows laptop. YMMV. FWIW, I also prefer the Mac ⌘⇥ (command-tab) behavior. You can drag stuff in and out of command-tab, you can hide or quit applications from it (Q and H keys), you can use either keyboard or mouse (or scroll wheel) to select apps, etc. I think you’re mostly just unfamiliar with it... which is perfectly natural, but you might try phrasing your question in a less aggressive manner.

blhack 16y ago
Hmm... Thank you. Honestly though, I was just generally curious about if apple devs are allowed to use non-apple computers.
- wallflower 16y ago
  Not devs but it is rumored that deep in the inner sanctums of the product engineering/design labs there are PC workstations running 3D/CAD/CAM/CAE software.
- DrJokepu 16y ago
  Well given that there are several pieces of Apple software that run on Windows (Safari, iTunes, QuickTime, etc) it would be strange if at least some developers didn't have access to Windows boxes. Although it's entirely possible that these run mostly on Apple hardware, surely they need "generic" PCs as well for testing.
rimantas 16y ago
See also this: http://support.apple.com/kb/ht3211 http://support.apple.com/kb/ht3211 You can configure some area on trackpad, clicking ther will register as right click (bottom right corner, for example).

philwelch 16y ago

There are chords you can use to replicate some of those functions in any Mac OS X text input field--command-up or command-down is top or bottom of block, command-left or command-right is left or right of line. Personally I just use vim--using the normal letter keys for navigation and jumping to insert mode is easier to me than chording or reaching over to the far reaches of the keyboard. If you're not vim-inclined, I'd use the Mac OS X chords.

rimantas 16y ago

Spend some time learning what you got there.

jsz0 16y ago

One of the first things you need to do is goto the Keyboard section of System Preferences and enable Full Keyboard Access for all controls. Makes OSX more keyboard friendly.

Locke1689 16y ago

To a certain extent you have to learn the "Apple" way of doing things. It does result in performance improvements (I think XCode's a pretty nice piece of software). That said, my preferred development environment is a UNIX terminal, vim, and a web browser, so I happen to see OS X as one of the best development platforms ("Get out of my way, don't make me worry about the system, and let me code!").

blasdel 16y ago

Anyone who really chafes with the UI model of OS X probably wouldn't apply to work in Software at Apple, and even if one did you'd probably get rejected for other reasons. If you're chafing on command-tab, try hitting its complement command-backtick As for tools, you can use whatever you think is best for the job, it's just that for anything that touches the GUI the best tool is going to be Obj-C/Cocoa. In other places, the HN mindset comes out to play pretty hardcore: The process sandboxing engine introduced in 10.5 is an embedded LISP Their CalDAV and Wiki Server implementations are in Python with Twisted They once shipped a desktop app written in Rails. Really. The iTMS backend is all Java, and at least formerly used WebObjects heavily For a while they had a bunch of GUI Java apps written with their Java/Cocoa bridge They've let motivated employees write Obj-C bridges for Perl, Python, and Ruby (x2) The guy that wrote two Ruby bridges is now doing a native Ruby implementation They've got at least 3 independent javascript frameworks shipping with webapps

statictype 16y ago
Anyone who really chafes with the UI model of OS X probably wouldn't apply to work in Software at Apple, I don't think very highly of OS X's Desktop UI but I doubt that would stop me from wanting to work at Apple. and even if one did you'd probably get rejected for other reasons. Such as?

commandar 16y ago

>Alt-Tabbing seems really neutered in comparison to the gnome/kde/windows equivalents...and the solution that is offered is the expose' key (which works, but involves using the mouse). I agree with a lot of your other points re: the keyboard layout, but FYI on this -- OS X is app-centric in its WM rather than window-centric. (Coincidentally, W7 has moved in this same direction with the Superbar). CMD-tab cycles through applications; once you've gotten to the application you want, use CMD-` to cycle through individual windows. It's a little bit weird at first, but once you get used to it, I honestly think it scales better for navigating large numbers of windows. HTH.