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> Machines to diagnose apnea have lots of sensors including electrodes, "chest-band" pulsometers, and "saturationmeters". It seems like a fallacy to claim that

> Machines to diagnose apnea have lots of sensors including electrodes, "chest-band" pulsometers, and "saturationmeters". It seems like a fallacy to claim that since diagnosis required complicated equipment in the past, that it will be necessary going forward. Machine learning is going to make tons of current diagnostic equipment look archaic in comparison. > I have asked doctors about capabilities of smart devices for apnea control or detection, all I got was laughs. Medical doctors are rarely up to date on the latest technology. I wouldn't be surprised if my doctor has never heard the term machine learning before in his life. Also, their livelihood kind of depends on this technology not being available. Just food for thought.

cjslep 9y ago
It seems a fallacy to say that "machine learning" will replace the sensors needed to produce the data required to make a diagnosis. Sure the sensors can always be in a smaller, simpler form factor, but that's engineering the sensors specifically. You need data to make a diagnosis, and the magic of machine learning can't replace raw data coming from sensors. I see this kind of confusion a lot, where "machine learning" is mistakenly used to mean obsoleting sensor data instead of obsoleting the hardcoded processing of said data.
- PierceJoy 9y ago
  > It seems a fallacy to say that "machine learning" will replace the sensors needed to produce the data required to make a diagnosis. I agree. Good thing I didn't say that :) My comment implied exactly what you wrote, that the machinery will get smaller, and machine learning will be able to make more accurate predictions from a more limited data set. Although, if we consider that the Apple Watch will be strapped to your wrist for 16 hours a day, it might actually turn out to be an expanded data set, but a smaller number of sources. > I see this kind of confusion a lot, where "machine learning" is mistakenly used to mean obsoleting sensor data instead of obsoleting the hardcoded processing of said data. I believe that's a misinterpretation on your part. I haven't seen anyone claim that machine learning doesn't require data from sensors.
demomode 9y ago
> It seems like a fallacy to claim that since diagnosis required complicated equipment in the past, that it will be necessary going forward. Machine learning is going to make tons of current diagnostic equipment look archaic in comparison. As someone sais below "ML is not going to replace raw input from sensors." > Medical doctors are rarely up to date on the latest technology. I wouldn't be surprised if my doctor has never heard the term machine learning before in his life. Current dignose equipament is big, invasive and unconfortable; often they require you to stay one night at the hospital. There are tests programs about using those devices to replace current tech (obvious reasons: less costs, less invasive tests, subject owns the hardware…) This kind of procedures are not used because "doctors are old and non-tech people", it's because it's not working. Sure, apps and smart devices could replace some day those devices but they need more and accurate sensors. Extrapolation of data from a good-enough pulse rate sensor it's not a replacement.
- PierceJoy 9y ago
  > As someone sais below "ML is not going to replace raw input from sensors." You've misinterpreted my comment. I didn't claim sensors weren't required. I said that it's a fallacy to claim that the current diagnostic equipment is required. There are sensors on smart watches. Cardiogram is using data from those sensors. > This kind of procedures are not used because "doctors are old and non-tech people", it's because it's not working. It's not working yet (at least not enough to make a 100% accurate diagnosis). No one claimed it was. I hate to break it to you, but the equipment currently used in sleep studies isn't 100% accurate either. Neither is the human interpretation made by sleep doctors. However, to say that doctors are laughing it off makes those doctors look stupid, not Cardiogram. Based on the studies they've run so far, it's not hard to envision a future where smart watches and apps will replace a large percentage of doctors whose main source of income is sleep studies. > Sure, apps and smart devices could replace some day those devices but they need more and accurate sensors. Extrapolation of data from a good-enough pulse rate sensor it's not a replacement. Your claim seems to be that sleep doctors need input from a large number of sensors, so it can't be possible to make a diagnosis from a single heart rate sensor. It would appear that Cardiogram has presented evidence to the contrary: https://blog.cardiogr.am/screening-for-hypertension-and-sleep-apnea-with-deepheart-416c9bc03efc https://blog.cardiogr.am/screening-for-hypertension-and-slee... If you disagree, make a specific criticism of their evidence.

cjslep 9y ago

It seems a fallacy to say that "machine learning" will replace the sensors needed to produce the data required to make a diagnosis. Sure the sensors can always be in a smaller, simpler form factor, but that's engineering the sensors specifically. You need data to make a diagnosis, and the magic of machine learning can't replace raw data coming from sensors. I see this kind of confusion a lot, where "machine learning" is mistakenly used to mean obsoleting sensor data instead of obsoleting the hardcoded processing of said data.

PierceJoy 9y ago
> It seems a fallacy to say that "machine learning" will replace the sensors needed to produce the data required to make a diagnosis. I agree. Good thing I didn't say that :) My comment implied exactly what you wrote, that the machinery will get smaller, and machine learning will be able to make more accurate predictions from a more limited data set. Although, if we consider that the Apple Watch will be strapped to your wrist for 16 hours a day, it might actually turn out to be an expanded data set, but a smaller number of sources. > I see this kind of confusion a lot, where "machine learning" is mistakenly used to mean obsoleting sensor data instead of obsoleting the hardcoded processing of said data. I believe that's a misinterpretation on your part. I haven't seen anyone claim that machine learning doesn't require data from sensors.

demomode 9y ago

> It seems like a fallacy to claim that since diagnosis required complicated equipment in the past, that it will be necessary going forward. Machine learning is going to make tons of current diagnostic equipment look archaic in comparison. As someone sais below "ML is not going to replace raw input from sensors." > Medical doctors are rarely up to date on the latest technology. I wouldn't be surprised if my doctor has never heard the term machine learning before in his life. Current dignose equipament is big, invasive and unconfortable; often they require you to stay one night at the hospital. There are tests programs about using those devices to replace current tech (obvious reasons: less costs, less invasive tests, subject owns the hardware…) This kind of procedures are not used because "doctors are old and non-tech people", it's because it's not working. Sure, apps and smart devices could replace some day those devices but they need more and accurate sensors. Extrapolation of data from a good-enough pulse rate sensor it's not a replacement.

PierceJoy 9y ago
> As someone sais below "ML is not going to replace raw input from sensors." You've misinterpreted my comment. I didn't claim sensors weren't required. I said that it's a fallacy to claim that the current diagnostic equipment is required. There are sensors on smart watches. Cardiogram is using data from those sensors. > This kind of procedures are not used because "doctors are old and non-tech people", it's because it's not working. It's not working yet (at least not enough to make a 100% accurate diagnosis). No one claimed it was. I hate to break it to you, but the equipment currently used in sleep studies isn't 100% accurate either. Neither is the human interpretation made by sleep doctors. However, to say that doctors are laughing it off makes those doctors look stupid, not Cardiogram. Based on the studies they've run so far, it's not hard to envision a future where smart watches and apps will replace a large percentage of doctors whose main source of income is sleep studies. > Sure, apps and smart devices could replace some day those devices but they need more and accurate sensors. Extrapolation of data from a good-enough pulse rate sensor it's not a replacement. Your claim seems to be that sleep doctors need input from a large number of sensors, so it can't be possible to make a diagnosis from a single heart rate sensor. It would appear that Cardiogram has presented evidence to the contrary: https://blog.cardiogr.am/screening-for-hypertension-and-sleep-apnea-with-deepheart-416c9bc03efc https://blog.cardiogr.am/screening-for-hypertension-and-slee... If you disagree, make a specific criticism of their evidence.