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I sometimes think, with deep regret, that most people living at or below the poverty line at 30, their chances of rising above that are quite low. At 40+ it's n
by Overtonwindow 9y ago
I sometimes think, with deep regret, that most people living at or below the poverty line at 30, their chances of rising above that are quite low. At 40+ it's next to zero. This may also be very generous. The amount of education, training, and opportunities would have to line up perfectly for someone to pull themselves up. Multigenerational, the odds appear much better.
- uselessbro 9y agoUpward mobility is a lie. There are tons of studies and books on this - Thomas Piketty might be one.
- matt_wulfeck 9y agoThat’s a pretty absurd thing to say so matter of factly. 62% of US billionaires are self made [1]. Many of us tech workers have experienced incredible upward mobility. 1. https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/269593 https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/269593
- mediasavvy 9y agoWhat percentage of self-made billionaires started out as millionaires? what percentage of poor people become self-made billionaires? What percentage of poor people who become self-made billionaires do so by going to trade school?
- smallnamespace 9y agoI think people argue past one another a lot about this because both facts can be simultaneously true: the US really is a land where a hard-working, smart, and motivated person (with a big pinch of luck) can work their way up from the top, and yet it's also a place where most people at the bottom aren't simultaneously hard-working, smart, motivated, and lucky. If they were, they would've moved up the rungs already. I mean, if you lived in a strict feudal society, the nobility as a class was CLOSED. Commoners not admitted. End of story. At the same time, even if say 20% of people at the bottom quantile of the wealth/income bracket make up into the next 20% every generation -- is that enough social mobility? Not enough? Should we just not have any poor people at all? If the goal is to have no people who are poor, doesn't the fact that we admit millions of (relatively) penniless legal and illegal immigrants make that goal much harder to achieve?
- SapphireSun 9y agoYou've arrived at the unthinkable thought. Why indeed, in a very rich country, do any poor people at all exist? Why is this crime not remedied immediately? The only possible explanation in a democratic society, is that somehow the upper classes have rigged the system via political machinations, voter suppression, dividing the intermediate classes against each other, and propaganda. It's a sobering thought. We might also ask ourselves, why are billionaires allowed to persist? Is that not itself, in the face of suffering, a crime on the face of humanity?
- SapphireSun 9y agoYou're downvoting me, and that's natural. I assume the bulk of vocal HNers are ancap libertarians (possibly some of you aligning with the Dark Enlightenment). However, you should take what I said more seriously. It represents a point of view with which you've perhaps had little contact, but is held by a significant (possibly even growing) portion of the population. It is diametrically opposed to many of the precepts you've been taught. For instance, that process legitimizes outcomes rather than the other way around. That one is a bit weird, because the SV _thing_ is to conduct A/B testing and achieve outcomes at all costs. However, you also in your heart of hearts believe that there are institutions, such as schools, governments, and corporations that, solely on their own merits, elevate some people legitimately above others. You might also believe that hierarchy, coercion, and domination are legitimate elements of society when expressed in particular forms such as corporate officers, investors, managers, take-it-or-leave-it contracts, privatization, and denial of aid. Here's a quick primer: https://www.currentaffairs.org/2017/06/the-difference-between-liberalism-and-leftism https://www.currentaffairs.org/2017/06/the-difference-betwee...
- austenallred 9y agoThe reason you’re getting downvoted has less to do with your argument and more to do with your tone. The strawman doesn’t help either.
- 9y ago
- dundercoder 9y agoAnecdotally, I worked for a CEO twice who had successful exits (8 figures), was raised poor.
- MrFantastic 9y agoWhat percent of billionaires come from Upper Middle class families? Most.
- matt_wulfeck 9y agoUpward mobility.
- austenallred 9y agoThere are also tons of studies and books that say it's not, and Piketty is hotly contested by many scholars.
- bitwize 9y agoUpward mobility is possible, but is much easier in a society which provides adequate social safety nets and assures greater equality overall. The USA is not such a society. The inability of the lower classes to move upward, perpetuating the cycle of poverty, is a well-recognized problem (unless you're a Republican or libertard).
- austenallred 9y ago> libertard I'm not a libertarian (or a Republican), but referring to groups in these types of ways (repuglican, libtard, obummer, etc.) always seems to me to indicate somebody that isn't interested in rational discussion, and is dismissive of any ideas that don't jive exactly with their current, deeply-embedded political philosophy. I'd love for you to prove me wrong.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- Jotra7 9y agoOr it's someone who has had discussion after discussion with 'Murican "libertarians" and has realized like most people they are too stupid to have an actual rational discussion not clouded with Randian dogma. But good for you for being such a moderate. What would we do without such wisdom?
- microcolonel 9y agoUpward mobility is the reality. Look at the stats for people exiting the bottom quintile of household income.
- nopii1234 9y agoI agree, but I’d like to add my 2¢ and mention that it’s not impossible either. Skilled trades really are in short supply and the pay is still good. My dad lost his job as a construction worker during the recession, in his 50s. At that age we knew it was going to be an uphill battle to continue to rely on his physical health for work much longer. So he hit the books while my mother continued to work part time, which allowed them to live off their savings longer at least. Upon passing class and getting his license, I helped them bootstrap all the way through to his first customer. A simple website + a few hundred a month spent on google ads does wonders. My mother now spends her time answering customer emails/estimates/calls/paperwork and it’s has become a self sustaining machine, and I have stopped running their ad campaign (Running off the good reputation/reviews). Now their biggest problem is finding enough skilled/trustworthy labor to complete their bids in a reasonable amount of time. As well as capex (still bootstrapped, which means expensive equipment rentals that eat heavily into margins) I’m not tying to trivialize this, it was/is an insane amount of work with much to do before one can consider that “he made it”. Just pointing out that there is hope. More details: - Bay Area -Parents speak English as a second language and only went to high school
- koolba 9y agoWhat class did he take and what license did he get? I couldn’t figure it out from your comment. Does being a contractor in SF require passing a class / license?
- Consultant32452 9y agohttps://www.census.gov/newsroom/releases/archives/poverty/cb11-49.html https://www.census.gov/newsroom/releases/archives/poverty/cb... >While 29 percent of the nation's population was in poverty for at least two months between the start of 2004 and the end of 2006, only 3 percent were poor during the entire period. Based on the actual data, your chances of getting out of poverty are quite GOOD.
- notpovertyline 9y agoThe poverty line is, unfortunately, not very meaningful and too low.