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I think the second order effects here are under appreciated. Ponder, which of these is overstepping? * Telling someone they look good today * Telling someone
by simonsarris 9y ago
I think the second order effects here are under appreciated. Ponder, which of these is overstepping?
* Telling someone they look good today
* Telling someone a very funny, yet lewd joke that you just thought up
* Inviting someone for a drink after work
* Telling someone they should dress better
* Telling someone they are too uptight
* Telling someone that, if they were nicer, they might get ahead more
* Inviting a co-worker to a party with lots of alcohol (example given in article)
You might think, "This is easy, clearly XYZ above are fine whereas ABC are not or could be questionable." But here's the problem: For a man talking to a man, all of the above are just plain fine.
Some may think that even in very low risk interactions, "why take the risk, if it could be misconstrued?" In a very tiny way even asking these questions opens me up to the risk of someone suggesting I'm some kind of sexist/bigot/etc, even though I'm only trying to be descriptive and not normative here, because someone may misinterpret a position here. In fact I'm sure there are plenty of people who would never comment on an article like this. But I bet they'll talk to their male co-workers about it, in private.
Which is kind of the rub. The net result of this round of men-wondering-of-they-are-overstepping may be even more boys club behavior than before.
How is it possible for men to treat women equally with other men, if it introduces such risk? I've seen all sorts of people advocating positions that boil down to "Don't make any friends at work, work is a place for work and nothing else." This seems like a losing strategy.
Not all difficult problems have broad solutions. Sometimes, spraying a pesticide increases the level of pests.
> Still, some workers said they were starting to follow “the Pence rule,” which was formerly known as the Billy Graham rule, after the evangelical preacher, but is now named for Vice President Mike Pence. Mr. Pence has said he does not eat alone with women who are not his wife or attend an event without her if alcohol will be served.
Maybe it is worth noting that Women are more likely than men to endorse Mike-Pence-style inter-gender workplace norms. From the NYT: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/01/upshot/members-of-the-opposite-sex-at-work-gender-study.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/01/upshot/members-of-the-opp...
- tabeth 9y ago> For a man talking to a man, all of the above are just plain fine. Really? I wouldn't do most of your examples, personally. I'm curious if I'm the weird one here.
- JauntyHatAngle 9y agoI think the issue with your line of thinking is that we aren't at an "equality for all, everyone treated the same" stage yet, we are still very much at the stage of having to strongly promote women in the workforce and champion their cause specifically - as the wave of celebrity assault reports has demonstrated. There is a much bigger problem of women being treated improperly in the workplace by some people, rather than finding that perfect balance just yet. I also disagree with a few of your bullet points, if I didn't know one of my male co-workers particular well, I definitely wouldn't say 6 of those bullet points you mentioned out of the 7.
- comstock 9y agoI don’t consider these things just plain fine. I’d consider many of them somewhat offensive even if they came from a friend, regardless of gender: * Telling someone a very funny, yet lewd joke that you just thought up * Telling someone they should dress better * Telling someone they are too uptight * Telling someone that, if they were nicer, they might get ahead more I guess people are different...
- simonsarris 9y agoI'm trying to leave "personally" out of this on purpose. Don't you see the problem, regardless of your personal feelings? People differ about what's fine in the list. But when a male doesn't think its fine, its still more-or-less fine by comparison. The negative reactions of men to other men receiving those comments would not at all resemble [some of] the negative reactions of women receiving them. The downside is fairly bounded with men (guy thinks commentor is a jerk or weird) and unbounded with women (commentor loses their job because HR themselves is also playing it ultra safe). Males can take more social risks with males, which may increase bonding (or it may not), which may leave women behind. That's a problem that's not easy to solve. Males allowing males more leeway means males will have more opportunities to bond with males. "Boys club effect" grows stronger.
- comstock 9y agoI think it’s absolutely conceivable that a male manager might fire a male employee for making a lewd joke. The other things? From both men and women I would guess the appropriate response is to inform the commenter that their remark is no ok. If it keeps happening you might want to get rid of them, sounds like a bad workplace environment.
- mindvirus 9y agoFor a lot of these, it's not the individual events that's the problem - it's the volume of it. A lot of your examples are things that I don't think you should want to do for anyone, if you value fairness. - Telling someone they look good would be fine, except that person hears it repeatedly every day, everywhere from walking down the street to when they go to a restaurant to the extent that it greatly exceeds comments on the quality of your work. So it leads to a lot of doubt - "I get few comments on the quality of my work, but a ton of comments on my appearance. How does society value me?" - Often lewd jokes objectify minority groups, and while they can be funny in the right context, when the minority member is the only one, or there is a power relationship, it's not appropriate. Imagine you were the only man on a team of women, and your boss kept telling day in and day out (really funny) jokes about how men are useless, only sit around and watch sports, get fat, etc. At first, sure, you might laugh but when you heard this day in and day out, it'd get old pretty fast - especially when you were going for a raise, or asking for a project. "How are husbands like lawn mowers? They're hard to get started, they emit noxious odors, and half the time they don't work." Ha. Ha. Ha. - Inviting someone for a drink is fine. If it's work, make it a group thing, there are easy ways to make this comfortable for everyone. And apply this to every outing - it makes it more comfortable for everyone. - If you want people to dress better, make a dress code and refer to that. - And don't tell people they are too uptight, it's not actionable. Address specific behavior. - Telling someone to be nicer also isn't actionable - assume good intent in people. Address specific behavior. - Parties, again just invite a few people. And invite their partner, if they have one. Following this model, I have great friends from work - men and women. But it starts with treating people fairly.
- jfoutz 9y ago> For a man talking to a man, all of the above are just plain fine. I think i could make at least 3 of those really awkward. I don't think it would be difficult to find someone to really nail all seven, hard. I don't think you've had that kind of uncomfortable attention rammed down your throat. Sometimes those penetrating insights are hard to face. You just haven't been under someone with so much power.
- fencepost 9y ago> But here's the problem: For a man talking to a man, all of the above are just plain fine. I strongly disagree. Some of those should be just fine for anyone (telling someone they look good, advising someone they should dress better ("Dress for the job you want to have"), telling someone to stop being such an asshole (phrased more nicely perhaps)). For most of the others the distinction is not male/female, it's friend/buddy or co-worker. I've worked with very straight-laced folks in the teetotaler and conservative religious categories, and drinks and lewd jokes would be completely inappropriate for them as well, male or female.