5 ms·
I've been an owner of a company for years now and I've always followed a few simple rules with the women who work for our company: - I never, ever comment on t
by adriand 9y ago
I've been an owner of a company for years now and I've always followed a few simple rules with the women who work for our company:
- I never, ever comment on their appearance, including new hairstyles, clothing, etc.
- I refer to them as "women", never as "ladies" or "girls" or other nonsense.
- No touching (hugs, etc.) with the exception of handshakes and high fives.
- I don't engage in, or tolerate, any sexist, sexual or otherwise inappropriate conversations.
I will, however, happily go for lunch, have a drink, etc., as I would any other colleague.
Incidentally I regularly break some of these rules with male employees, such as remarking on haircuts ("looking good", etc.), but it's different. (I maintain the rule about sexist/sexual conversations across the board - talking about women with male colleagues isn't cool either.)
I could probably break some of these rules with some of the women in my office without causing offence too, especially the people I'm closer with - e.g. by remarking on a new outfit or something - but I don't want to be a creep so I just play it super safe with everybody.
It's really not all that difficult: be a professional, don't be a creep, and err on the side of caution. If you have to overcompensate like Pence, it's still a hell of a lot better than the alternative.
- xupybd 9y ago>If you have to overcompensate like Pence, it's still a hell of a lot better than the alternative. I kind of think Pence is being smart. Conservative politicians can't survive that sort of scandal so being really careful can't hurt. Also I think there is some wisdom in not always trusting yourself not to cross the line, why not just keep your self as far away from the line as you can reasonably maintain. Kinda like ulysses tied to the mast, it's just safer that way.
- BEEdwards 9y ago>Conservative politicians can't survive that sort of scandal so being really careful can't hurt. Roy Moore would love to talk to you. Or more specifically your daughter if she's around... *Moore is know for dating underage girls and has been for a long time, yet it didn't hurt his political career. You can downvote, but the fact is conservatives only pay lip service to caring about morality. http://www.businessinsider.com/roy-moore-former-colleague-common-knowledge-hedated-high-school-girls-2017-11 http://www.businessinsider.com/roy-moore-former-colleague-co...
- majewsky 9y ago> You can downvote "Please don't comment about the voting on comments. It never does any good" https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html (By the way, I agree with your point, but the guidelines are more important than a single argument.)
- RhodesianHunter 9y ago"Conservative politicians can't survive that sort of scandal" Alabama is about to elect a senator in the middle of 5 under-aged sexual assault allegations. Times have changed!
- xupybd 9y agoI'll reword that "Conservative politicians shouldn't survive that sort of scandal". Representing the conservative voters should mean that you uphold a more conservative personal life, but hypocrites are all too common. I think that adds to the point that I think Pence is being smart, draw the line as far away as you can.
- fencepost 9y ago>> [overcompensating] > I kind of think Pence is being smart. The problem is that Pence takes it so far as to be creepy. My feeling on him is that in a different time (and not as far back as you'd expect) he'd be in the "Ankle? To the stocks with her!" crowd - and god help you if someone accused you of being a witch.
- debacle 9y ago> - I never, ever comment on their appearance, including new hairstyles, clothing, etc. > - I refer to them as "women", never as "ladies" or "girls" or other nonsense. > If you have to overcompensate like Pence News flash, you're overcompensating as well.
- atom-morgan 9y agoWhy the downvotes? Debacle is right.
- sidlls 9y agoTreating a workplace like a setting requiring professional behavior is "overcompensating?" What the GP described is simply default behavior in a professional setting.
- atom-morgan 9y agoThere's a double standard in GP's comment.
- noobermin 9y agoThe article actually states how there can be a difference between hugging and harassment, to just point out one example.
- gizmo686 9y agoThe default behaviour can be to overcompensate.
- hasenj 9y agoDamned no matter what you do?
- debacle 9y agoJust treat people nice. There's a way to compliment a woman's dress or hair without sounding like a creep. In fact, women who are friends do it all the time. It's part of how women form platonic relationships. One of the nicest compliments you can pay someone is noticing a conscious change that they've made in themselves!
- atom-morgan 9y agoSo is the lesson here: be sexist just to be on the safe side?
- simonsarris 9y ago> so I just play it super safe with everybody Yes, except not with everybody, you don't play it super safe with men, as you pointed out. That's the whole problem.
- hasenj 9y agoMen don't write articles in newspapers about their male bosses harassing them?
- orblivion 9y ago> never, ever comment on their appearance, including new hairstyles, clothing, etc. That it's come to this is really sad.
- astura 9y agoSad? No! It's always been impolite to comment on people's appearance unless you are close with them. When you make comments about the appearance of your coworker there's so much that has the potential to be misunderstood and it's just so totally unnecessary. This isn't new either, Miss Manners has been advocating it since the 70s.
- orblivion 9y agoI can't say "hey nice haircut"? Just because there may be an ounce of sexual undertone? There's a line not to be crossed, but Jesus you're talking about neutering our humanity here.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- astura 9y agoYou can say whatever you want. It's just, as a general rule, impolite to make comments on people's physical appearance even if you mean well and it always has been. Doubly so in the workplace. People are impolite all the time, when you are a married women like I am, intimate details of your uterus suddenly becomes something strangers talk about. Extremely rude, but unfortunately common. Behaving politely in the office is in your best interest. It's not about "neutering our humanity," it's about etiquette. Defecation is an essential part of humanity and life, yet there's something preventing you from just dropping your pants and taking a shit wherever you happen to be when the urge hits you. https://hbr.org/2003/12/in-praise-of-boundaries-a-conversation-with-miss-manners https://hbr.org/2003/12/in-praise-of-boundaries-a-conversati... >Martin makes a compelling case that business needs more etiquette, not less. Without some formality in social intercourse, she argues, human interactions end up being governed by laws, which are too blunt to guide people through the nuances of personal—or professional—behavior. "Nice haircut" is pretty benign but best avoided. Many times people feel the need to make rude comments about others but try to disguise it into a backhanded complement. You don't want to be misunderstood.
- gizmo686 9y ago>I refer to them as "women", never as "ladies" or "girls" or other nonsense. Should we discriminate against people who come from a minority dialect where this is less common? >I don't engage in, or tolerate, any sexist ... conversations. Yes you do. Your comment to which I am replying advocates for sexism. >Incidentally I regularly break some of these rules with male employees, such as remarking on haircuts ("looking good", etc.), but it's different. Congratulations, you are now excluding women from a class of social interactions that you have with men. This means that it will be harder for them to develop the type of interpersonal relationships with you that help them advance in the workplace. This is the exact same problem as not taking women out to lunch (for fear of accusastion of harrasment), just to a lesser degree. Maybe the benifits of these policies are worth it, maybe not. However, it is far from simple. Especially if you have truly bought into the notion that any form of sexism is wrong, because the standards of conduct expected of you (or, at least, as you are describing them) are still inherently sexist. Further, I think this type of comment does another disservice. It makes it sound like the types of harrasment we are talking about are just normal interactions where one side happens to be a women. However, when you look at the actual instances it is almost always the case that the behaviour is unambigously bad, and would still be so regardless of the genders. Seeing comments like yours generates alot of pushback from people who read it and then misunderstand what the original problem that we are talking about is.
- hasenj 9y ago> Yes you do. Your comment to which I am replying advocates for sexism. No matter what you say or do, someone will find a way to call it sexist.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- ThomPete 9y agoI've been a company owner of a company with 80 people both for 7 years men and women. I dated my secretary for a while (she came on to me). I never had any problems working with men or women. I don't subscribe to this androgynous approach to company culture and I don't see why anyone would willingly want to work in such an environment. You can both be professional and have a fun environment to work in. A place where both men and women want to come and work without having to resort to a complete sterilize the workplace.