5 ms·

I honestly don't know what all the fuss is about? Is it that difficult to just treat women -- not nicely -- but equally? This is kindergarten level stuff, peopl

by tabeth 9y ago

I honestly don't know what all the fuss is about? Is it that difficult to just treat women -- not nicely -- but equally? This is kindergarten level stuff, people. Keep your hands to yourself, be nice, don't ask overly personal questions about people unless they share first, etc. I guarantee anyone reading this that if they just reflect behavior they'll be fine. This means if someone shares something moderately personal, do the same. If someone laughs, laugh back. To mimic behavior is to be human. Be human.

ThomPete 9y ago
No it's not but it's hard for the hysteria to settle and thus a lot of men will be wrongfully accused.
- neom 9y ago
  Wrongfully accused of what? OP literally described how not to be accused of anything 101. Treat women like your fellow man, treat women like humans.
  - ThomPete 9y ago
    I know what OP is describing and I am saying that that's not enough as there are difference of opinion with regards to what that means. For some saying sweetie is sexual abuse.
    - tabeth 9y ago
      I'm curious: would you call a man sweetie?
      - ThomPete 9y ago
        No just like I wouldn't call a girl bro or dude or m8. I see no issue in saying that to someone and have never had any problems saying it to the women I have been working with or know. I am well aware of when to do that and when to not. Yet now it's suddenly become an issue because some consider it sexual abuse.
        neom 9y ago
        You don't think it's condescending to call someone sweetie at work?
        ThomPete 9y ago
        No. What's condescending about it? It's all about context. That's completely missed in this discussion.
        colanderman 9y ago
        The word you're looking for is "harassment", not "abuse". Married couples call each other "sweetie", as do parents their children. It's not an appropriate term to use with co-workers (either male→female or female→male, both of which I've heard).
        ThomPete 9y ago
        no thats not the word i am looking for. some considder sweeite to be sexual abuse exactly the issue with metoo.
        colanderman 9y ago
        OK, I'll bite, who calls it "abuse"? Because without an example, it looks to me like you're presenting a straw man to trivialize legitimate complaints.
        ThomPete 9y ago
        some of the metoo participant in fb and twitter threads.
    - noobermin 9y ago
      Allow the following thought experiment: would you call a co-worker who is non-white "brownie"? "Sweetie" has that connotation nowadays. I can try to sympathetic to what seem like onerous rules, but refraining from "sweetie" seems like the least of problems.
      - ThomPete 9y ago
        Sweetie has no such connotation amongst the people I have worked with. This is exactly the problem. It's all about context which the metoo campaing completely destroys by equalizing everything.
        noobermin 9y ago
        Alright, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that's just how it is for you. It does depends on the context, but when you interact with others outside your circle (or hire outside your circle), you have to be somewhat sensitive to their perceptions. I think that is just "human interaction 101."
        ThomPete 9y ago
        of course but the problem obviously arises when someone new come on board. do they adapt to the culture or walk away or do the culture respect the subjective opinions of the newcommer. in my world that should be up to the culture as long as nothing illegal is going on.
        noobermin 9y ago
        It's a difficult situation, I think. I think a linear combination is best, but which axis the vector points along, it might be hard to say. I think the only thing I'd want is to not have a newcomer feel shut out because they can't adapt. You've actually given me something to think about. Cheers.
        ThomPete 9y ago
neom 9y ago
All the fuss is about the fact that unfortunately many men have still not acclimated to the basic tenants of a modern inclusive society.
tree_of_item 9y ago
This is a pretty disingenuous framing. "Be human", really? The point is that you can't actually literally treat people equally because there are plenty of things that are acceptable to say or do with another man but not with a woman.
- tabeth 9y ago
  what are some of the things, in your opinion, that are acceptable to say to a man you do not know, that are not acceptable to say to a women you do not know?
  - gizmo686 9y ago
    The issue is not with complete strangers, but with people who you have some level of a relationship with. For example, if I will invite a male co-worker out to lunch without a second thought, but I would not do so with a female co-worker unless someone else was coming along. This very clearly hurts my female co-workers, but I care more about covering my own ass then gender equality. I also would not think twice about asking a male co-worker about his personal life, but am much more cautious when doing so with a female co-worker.
    - tabeth 9y ago
      your example is bizarre. of course you have to use complete strangers as an example, because we're attempting to determine if the gender is the variable of concern, not your relationship. if you were friends with this female co-worker 4 times as long as the male co-worker I'm sure you wouldn't have any qualms. why wouldn't you invite your female colleague to lunch? what do you think is going to happen? good lord.
      - gizmo686 9y ago
        >What do you think is going to happen? Most likely, nothing. Less likely, it would be received as some level of "creepy", either at the moment or at some future HR review. It simply does not feel worth it to take the chance. I suspect that most of the feeling is the result of anti sexual harassment propaganda rather than actual consequences, but that is not a minefield I feel like dealing with on a daily basis. >of course you have to use complete strangers as an example, because we're attempting to determine if the gender is the variable of concern, not your relationship. Gender could be a variable of concern in established relationships. For example, if it takes women on average 4 times as long to reach a given level of interaction with me compare to men, then gender is clearly a variable. Empirically, I can tell you that the gender of my co-workers is highly predictive of how personal I get with them.
sliverstorm 9y ago
The point is it can be difficult to treat women exactly the same as men, and that's in itself not fair really to anybody. One "solution" is to keep the workplace as sterile as possible. Get close to no-one, keep to yourself, all relationships remain starched & supremely professional. But ultimately that's not really a win either. Who wants to work with robots?
- tabeth 9y ago
  why is it difficult to treat women the same as men?
  - sliverstorm 9y ago
    as has been said many times by now in this thread- there are many things a man can say to another man that he can't say to a woman, and things he can't do. or even if there is something he can say, he might not be totally confident he can say it. who among us has never said something that came out wrong? "so just never say or do any of those things ever" is a poor solution.
    - tabeth 9y ago
      no, it hasn't been clarified. what are these mysterious things a man can say to other men he does not know that he couldn't say to a woman he doesn't know?
      - sliverstorm 9y ago
        mostly involving extracurricular activity and people you know somewhat rather than total strangers. asking a woman if she wants to come over to your house tonight to taste whiskey with you and another male coworker, just not quite the same. invite on a group ski trip with a reservation for only one hotel room. join me for dinner to talk about project/feature. a packed car trip to somewhere in a very small vehicle. let's go visit the hot springs (which, it's common knowledge, are clothing-optional at night). taking that last one further, i was once told it was ok that i had forgot my swimsuit, for that reason. man to man, i thought nothing of it, but by god could you imagine saying that to your female coworker? none of these things are crimes, but there's zero chance anyone would ever read anything into it or that anything would happen if it's a bunch of guys, while there's clear places a woman might hear a different meaning or have reservations, hence the newfound question marks. anyway, i'm not the canonical source on this, just attempting to think of my own experiences working in a boy's club. and of course if a man is truly close & open friends, not just work acquaintances, with a woman, pretty much everything said here may go out the window.

by tabeth 9y ago

ThomPete 9y ago

No it's not but it's hard for the hysteria to settle and thus a lot of men will be wrongfully accused.

neom 9y ago
Wrongfully accused of what? OP literally described how not to be accused of anything 101. Treat women like your fellow man, treat women like humans.
- ThomPete 9y ago
  I know what OP is describing and I am saying that that's not enough as there are difference of opinion with regards to what that means. For some saying sweetie is sexual abuse.
  - tabeth 9y ago
    I'm curious: would you call a man sweetie?
    - ThomPete 9y ago
      No just like I wouldn't call a girl bro or dude or m8. I see no issue in saying that to someone and have never had any problems saying it to the women I have been working with or know. I am well aware of when to do that and when to not. Yet now it's suddenly become an issue because some consider it sexual abuse.
      - neom 9y ago
        You don't think it's condescending to call someone sweetie at work?
        ThomPete 9y ago
        No. What's condescending about it? It's all about context. That's completely missed in this discussion.
      - colanderman 9y ago
        The word you're looking for is "harassment", not "abuse". Married couples call each other "sweetie", as do parents their children. It's not an appropriate term to use with co-workers (either male→female or female→male, both of which I've heard).
        ThomPete 9y ago
        no thats not the word i am looking for. some considder sweeite to be sexual abuse exactly the issue with metoo.
        colanderman 9y ago
        OK, I'll bite, who calls it "abuse"? Because without an example, it looks to me like you're presenting a straw man to trivialize legitimate complaints.
        ThomPete 9y ago
        some of the metoo participant in fb and twitter threads.
  - noobermin 9y ago
    Allow the following thought experiment: would you call a co-worker who is non-white "brownie"? "Sweetie" has that connotation nowadays. I can try to sympathetic to what seem like onerous rules, but refraining from "sweetie" seems like the least of problems.
    - ThomPete 9y ago
      Sweetie has no such connotation amongst the people I have worked with. This is exactly the problem. It's all about context which the metoo campaing completely destroys by equalizing everything.
      - noobermin 9y ago
        Alright, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that's just how it is for you. It does depends on the context, but when you interact with others outside your circle (or hire outside your circle), you have to be somewhat sensitive to their perceptions. I think that is just "human interaction 101."
        ThomPete 9y ago
        of course but the problem obviously arises when someone new come on board. do they adapt to the culture or walk away or do the culture respect the subjective opinions of the newcommer. in my world that should be up to the culture as long as nothing illegal is going on.
        noobermin 9y ago
        It's a difficult situation, I think. I think a linear combination is best, but which axis the vector points along, it might be hard to say. I think the only thing I'd want is to not have a newcomer feel shut out because they can't adapt. You've actually given me something to think about. Cheers.
        ThomPete 9y ago

neom 9y ago

All the fuss is about the fact that unfortunately many men have still not acclimated to the basic tenants of a modern inclusive society.

tree_of_item 9y ago

This is a pretty disingenuous framing. "Be human", really? The point is that you can't actually literally treat people equally because there are plenty of things that are acceptable to say or do with another man but not with a woman.

tabeth 9y ago
what are some of the things, in your opinion, that are acceptable to say to a man you do not know, that are not acceptable to say to a women you do not know?
- gizmo686 9y ago
  The issue is not with complete strangers, but with people who you have some level of a relationship with. For example, if I will invite a male co-worker out to lunch without a second thought, but I would not do so with a female co-worker unless someone else was coming along. This very clearly hurts my female co-workers, but I care more about covering my own ass then gender equality. I also would not think twice about asking a male co-worker about his personal life, but am much more cautious when doing so with a female co-worker.
  - tabeth 9y ago
    your example is bizarre. of course you have to use complete strangers as an example, because we're attempting to determine if the gender is the variable of concern, not your relationship. if you were friends with this female co-worker 4 times as long as the male co-worker I'm sure you wouldn't have any qualms. why wouldn't you invite your female colleague to lunch? what do you think is going to happen? good lord.
    - gizmo686 9y ago
      >What do you think is going to happen? Most likely, nothing. Less likely, it would be received as some level of "creepy", either at the moment or at some future HR review. It simply does not feel worth it to take the chance. I suspect that most of the feeling is the result of anti sexual harassment propaganda rather than actual consequences, but that is not a minefield I feel like dealing with on a daily basis. >of course you have to use complete strangers as an example, because we're attempting to determine if the gender is the variable of concern, not your relationship. Gender could be a variable of concern in established relationships. For example, if it takes women on average 4 times as long to reach a given level of interaction with me compare to men, then gender is clearly a variable. Empirically, I can tell you that the gender of my co-workers is highly predictive of how personal I get with them.

sliverstorm 9y ago

The point is it can be difficult to treat women exactly the same as men, and that's in itself not fair really to anybody. One "solution" is to keep the workplace as sterile as possible. Get close to no-one, keep to yourself, all relationships remain starched & supremely professional. But ultimately that's not really a win either. Who wants to work with robots?

tabeth 9y ago
why is it difficult to treat women the same as men?
- sliverstorm 9y ago
  as has been said many times by now in this thread- there are many things a man can say to another man that he can't say to a woman, and things he can't do. or even if there is something he can say, he might not be totally confident he can say it. who among us has never said something that came out wrong? "so just never say or do any of those things ever" is a poor solution.
  - tabeth 9y ago
    no, it hasn't been clarified. what are these mysterious things a man can say to other men he does not know that he couldn't say to a woman he doesn't know?
    - sliverstorm 9y ago
      mostly involving extracurricular activity and people you know somewhat rather than total strangers. asking a woman if she wants to come over to your house tonight to taste whiskey with you and another male coworker, just not quite the same. invite on a group ski trip with a reservation for only one hotel room. join me for dinner to talk about project/feature. a packed car trip to somewhere in a very small vehicle. let's go visit the hot springs (which, it's common knowledge, are clothing-optional at night). taking that last one further, i was once told it was ok that i had forgot my swimsuit, for that reason. man to man, i thought nothing of it, but by god could you imagine saying that to your female coworker? none of these things are crimes, but there's zero chance anyone would ever read anything into it or that anything would happen if it's a bunch of guys, while there's clear places a woman might hear a different meaning or have reservations, hence the newfound question marks. anyway, i'm not the canonical source on this, just attempting to think of my own experiences working in a boy's club. and of course if a man is truly close & open friends, not just work acquaintances, with a woman, pretty much everything said here may go out the window.