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The flipside of this is that developers are forced to support versions of their apps that are compatible with previous operating systems. That's bad for develop

The flipside of this is that developers are forced to support versions of their apps that are compatible with previous operating systems. That's bad for developers, but good for consumers. iPhones shove updates down your throat as a user. They're so persistent that inevitably most people will accept the new update - and even if you're stubborn like me, eventually your apps will no longer be supported under the newer OS's, and you are forced to update to keep using them. The problem is that the OS upgrades invariably slow down older phones, so even if you're perfectly happy with your iPhone to begin with, it starts to act slow as it gets the newer OS's. It's good that Android users can at least avoid this particular kind of planned obsolescence

userbinator 9y ago
That's bad for developers, but good for consumers. Is it? I'm a developer --- and a consumer, as are most --- and have always kept to the principle of as much compatibility as possible, mostly by not gorging on new features for the sake of new features, and a "do what you can with what you have" approach. To me, spending a little extra effort to get much more compatibility is well worth it, since I've been on "the other side" and know the horrible experience of not being able to use something just because the developer didn't bother to think about anything but the "new and shiny"; that seems to be something a lot of developers completely ignore or even oppose.
- vlozko 9y ago
  The QA effort to support 3-4 of the most recent OS’s isn’t “a little extra effort.” It can get pretty expensive, too, since you may have to have devices for all supported OS versions and possibly idioms (e.g. iPhone, iPad).
  - BoorishBears 9y ago
    If only Android devs only had to think about 3-4 of the most recent OSes... There are outliers in either direction, but these days the minimum supported version tends to be either API Level 19 if you're conservative, with a stead shift towards ... API Level 21. For reference, Oreo is API Level 26.
- guelo 9y ago
  As a developer of a long-lived popular app I've been pretty agressive at cutting off older OS versions from updates (min sdk 21 right now, considering 23). But the Play Store lets you keep serving up an old version of your app for those older devices. So before I cut off an old OS version I make sure to have a solid bug free release that I can serve them for a few years until eventually my backend API server is forced to break backward compatibility at which point I pull it from the app store and serve up an I'm sorry message for anyone trying to run that old version, about 3 years old at this point.
thatswrong0 9y ago
Making it easier for users to run software with unpatched vulnerabilities, even accounting for some extra slowness, isn’t a good thing..
- dredmorbius 9y ago
  That "isn't a good thing" is paired against another "isn't a good thing": forcing people along an (expensive, disruptive, often utility-losing) upgrade path simply to drive revenue goals. Perhaps we might look at this as a set of goals: 1. Users shouldn't run software with unpathed vulnerabilitities. 2. Users shouldn't have to discard devices after a small number of years (1-3, from date of purchase, in many cases). 3. Hardware, OS, and software vendors should have a functioning ecosystem in which they can operate profitably. Unfortunately, the economics of hardware + information goods with an ongoing support liability but a one-time purchase point are pretty much pathological. This isn't a new problem. It's one that AT&T and IBM solved, in the 1930s and earlier, by leasing rather than selling hardware. IBM has continued that model through the present, for its enterprise computing hardware. There are few general-public devices that fall under this category, though.
  - d10r 9y ago
    I think a fundamental problem here is that most information and knowledge goods don't fit well into an economic framework which is based on the assumption of scarcity. Of course you can artificially add scarcity with DRM tech, patent law etc. But what mostly happens in practice is that you need to come up with some kind of indirect business model. Like e.g. Google, developing a lot of great tech, but ultimately being a broker of user attention and data. This disconnect between business model and products leads to a lot of unaligned incentives between makers and users of product. That's the innocent looking root of evilness - no bad people required.
    - dredmorbius 9y ago
      Pretty much, yes. Market economics works for commodities. For wages, it tends to subsistence levels. For public goods (including information) it under-provisions. For rents (fixed-quantity goods or services, including both land and attention), this tends to absorb surplus valley. For assets and risk-based elements, I'm still sorting out the dynamics, though they also appear to be poor. There's various precedent for much of this: * Adam Smith's classifications of types of goods: commodities, wages, stock (capital), rents, assets (gold and silver), interest, and "expenses of the sovereign" (public goods). * Various economic-sector classifications. Alexandre Dumas, Simon Kuznets, Clark, and Beniger come up with 3-5 elements, generally: extractive/sourcing, manufacture & construction, transport and distribution, risk and finance (especially FIRE), governance and information. I'm finding these fascinating. * Industrial classifications including SIC, NAICS, and ISIC. * A classification of technological methods I've been looking at for a few years, including materials, networks, information, control, knowledge, and power transmission & transformation. But yes: inoformation and markets play poorly. Software and systems incorporate both information and risk elements. (And probably others.)
hew 9y ago
> The problem is that the OS upgrades invariably slow down older phones, so even if you're perfectly happy with your iPhone to begin with, it starts to act slow as it gets the newer OS's. This is a truism and from my experience it rings false. I ran an iPhone 5 for four years without feeling degraded. FWIW, as background, I'm an ex-overclocking PC enthusiast and I consider myself very sensitive to any sorts of performance lag.
- anamexis 9y ago
  Side note: "truism" means "A statement that is obviously true and says nothing new or interesting."
  - erikbye 9y ago
    Or something that’s very obvious to be self-evidently true. But, he might have thought of the complaint as so typical it has become a saying, and a truism by argumentum ad populum, but in his eyes false. Besides, most truisms are true only until they are not (a truism example). The Sun is hot. One day it won’t even be (exist).
- candiodari 9y ago
  It's less true on iPhones but even there it starts happening after a few years. On Android, it's terrible. But yeah, android was a total resource hog when it got started because of Java, and it's gotten worse and worse.
megy 9y ago
> That's bad for developers, but good for consumers. It is bad for consumers as well, since you only have so much time.
scarface74 9y ago
Apple has allowed you to download the last compatible version for years - that ability goes as far back as at least iOS 5 that came out in 2012.
- opportune 9y ago
  Sure, but will (networked) apps still work? Is it possible to download apps for previous versions still? If you can revert OS but can't run netflix/facebook/whatever then it's not very useful.
  - scarface74 9y ago
    Yes. I have a first generation iPad (running iOS 5) that I rediscovered when I moved. I reset it because I forgot the password. Hulu, Netflix, Crackle, theCW, Plex, Google Drive, CBS (?), and Spotify still work. Apple's productivity apps (Pages,Numbers, and Keynote) also still work and sync with iCloud. On the other hand, I also rediscovered an old first generation iPod Touch (iOS 3). Nothing that requires network access except for the built in apps still works.
    - jorvi 9y ago
      This[0] could give your iPod Touch a slight kick in the butt, and this[1] for your iPad, if you feel inclined to keep using them. [0]http://www.whited00r.com/index?lang=en http://www.whited00r.com/index?lang=en [1]http://www.grayd00r.com http://www.grayd00r.com
      - scarface74 9y ago
        That's really cool. I'm going to definitely try it on my old iPod Touch.
  - 2muchcoffeeman 9y ago
    You can to a degree. You’re able to install the last compatible version of an app.
- 9y ago
ksk 9y ago
>The problem is that the OS upgrades invariably slow down older phones, so even if you're perfectly happy with your iPhone to begin with, it starts to act slow as it gets the newer OS's. It's good that Android users can at least avoid this particular kind of planned obsolescence I have seen this first hand with my 4S. The updates slowed down my phone, which I was perfectly happy with. Unfortunately, Apple blocks you from restoring your phone's OS back to when it worked great. Heh, and then I bought the 6S, so I suppose Apple got my money anyway.
frik 9y ago
> iPhones shove updates down your throats as a user It doesn't, you don't have to update iOS. You can keep an older version. The same with Android. The only difference is that AppStore won't serve you older app-versions that would still work for your iOS version, after some time. While PlayStore still serves you much older app-versions.
urda 9y ago
> iPhones shove updates down your throat as a user. And we have the monster that was Windows XP because of users thinking "updates" are "forced" down throats. iOS is correctly celebrated for having such a high adoption of the "latest and greatest", and certainly hasn't become the demon that is the unpatched Android landscape. So thankfully, from NetSec to the end user, it's a fantastic thing that iOS keeps devices more up to date than android.
- dilap 9y ago
  I agree, but it is true that newer updates dramatically slow down older hardware.
  - aaronbrethorst 9y ago
    Backup, wipe, and reinstall.
    - Yizahi 9y ago
      In some cases it doesn't help. E.g. iOS 7 update for iPad2, iPhone 4/4S etc.
      - dep_b 9y ago
        iOS 7 was pretty rough on anything slower than an iPhone 5
  - ben_w 9y ago
    I thought this had been tested recently and shown not true? A psychological illusion or something? I’ve never noticed any significant, let alone dramatic, speed change on any given device from iOS 3 on the original iPad onwards.
    - majani 9y ago
      Apps that represent light websites like Google and Facebook are now 300mb+. With such memory hogging updates, few people with older phones are going to update.

userbinator 9y ago

That's bad for developers, but good for consumers. Is it? I'm a developer --- and a consumer, as are most --- and have always kept to the principle of as much compatibility as possible, mostly by not gorging on new features for the sake of new features, and a "do what you can with what you have" approach. To me, spending a little extra effort to get much more compatibility is well worth it, since I've been on "the other side" and know the horrible experience of not being able to use something just because the developer didn't bother to think about anything but the "new and shiny"; that seems to be something a lot of developers completely ignore or even oppose.

vlozko 9y ago
The QA effort to support 3-4 of the most recent OS’s isn’t “a little extra effort.” It can get pretty expensive, too, since you may have to have devices for all supported OS versions and possibly idioms (e.g. iPhone, iPad).
- BoorishBears 9y ago
  If only Android devs only had to think about 3-4 of the most recent OSes... There are outliers in either direction, but these days the minimum supported version tends to be either API Level 19 if you're conservative, with a stead shift towards ... API Level 21. For reference, Oreo is API Level 26.
guelo 9y ago
As a developer of a long-lived popular app I've been pretty agressive at cutting off older OS versions from updates (min sdk 21 right now, considering 23). But the Play Store lets you keep serving up an old version of your app for those older devices. So before I cut off an old OS version I make sure to have a solid bug free release that I can serve them for a few years until eventually my backend API server is forced to break backward compatibility at which point I pull it from the app store and serve up an I'm sorry message for anyone trying to run that old version, about 3 years old at this point.

thatswrong0 9y ago

Making it easier for users to run software with unpatched vulnerabilities, even accounting for some extra slowness, isn’t a good thing..

dredmorbius 9y ago
That "isn't a good thing" is paired against another "isn't a good thing": forcing people along an (expensive, disruptive, often utility-losing) upgrade path simply to drive revenue goals. Perhaps we might look at this as a set of goals: 1. Users shouldn't run software with unpathed vulnerabilitities. 2. Users shouldn't have to discard devices after a small number of years (1-3, from date of purchase, in many cases). 3. Hardware, OS, and software vendors should have a functioning ecosystem in which they can operate profitably. Unfortunately, the economics of hardware + information goods with an ongoing support liability but a one-time purchase point are pretty much pathological. This isn't a new problem. It's one that AT&T and IBM solved, in the 1930s and earlier, by leasing rather than selling hardware. IBM has continued that model through the present, for its enterprise computing hardware. There are few general-public devices that fall under this category, though.
- d10r 9y ago
  I think a fundamental problem here is that most information and knowledge goods don't fit well into an economic framework which is based on the assumption of scarcity. Of course you can artificially add scarcity with DRM tech, patent law etc. But what mostly happens in practice is that you need to come up with some kind of indirect business model. Like e.g. Google, developing a lot of great tech, but ultimately being a broker of user attention and data. This disconnect between business model and products leads to a lot of unaligned incentives between makers and users of product. That's the innocent looking root of evilness - no bad people required.
  - dredmorbius 9y ago
    Pretty much, yes. Market economics works for commodities. For wages, it tends to subsistence levels. For public goods (including information) it under-provisions. For rents (fixed-quantity goods or services, including both land and attention), this tends to absorb surplus valley. For assets and risk-based elements, I'm still sorting out the dynamics, though they also appear to be poor. There's various precedent for much of this: * Adam Smith's classifications of types of goods: commodities, wages, stock (capital), rents, assets (gold and silver), interest, and "expenses of the sovereign" (public goods). * Various economic-sector classifications. Alexandre Dumas, Simon Kuznets, Clark, and Beniger come up with 3-5 elements, generally: extractive/sourcing, manufacture & construction, transport and distribution, risk and finance (especially FIRE), governance and information. I'm finding these fascinating. * Industrial classifications including SIC, NAICS, and ISIC. * A classification of technological methods I've been looking at for a few years, including materials, networks, information, control, knowledge, and power transmission & transformation. But yes: inoformation and markets play poorly. Software and systems incorporate both information and risk elements. (And probably others.)

hew 9y ago

> The problem is that the OS upgrades invariably slow down older phones, so even if you're perfectly happy with your iPhone to begin with, it starts to act slow as it gets the newer OS's. This is a truism and from my experience it rings false. I ran an iPhone 5 for four years without feeling degraded. FWIW, as background, I'm an ex-overclocking PC enthusiast and I consider myself very sensitive to any sorts of performance lag.

anamexis 9y ago
Side note: "truism" means "A statement that is obviously true and says nothing new or interesting."
- erikbye 9y ago
  Or something that’s very obvious to be self-evidently true. But, he might have thought of the complaint as so typical it has become a saying, and a truism by argumentum ad populum, but in his eyes false. Besides, most truisms are true only until they are not (a truism example). The Sun is hot. One day it won’t even be (exist).
candiodari 9y ago
It's less true on iPhones but even there it starts happening after a few years. On Android, it's terrible. But yeah, android was a total resource hog when it got started because of Java, and it's gotten worse and worse.

megy 9y ago

> That's bad for developers, but good for consumers. It is bad for consumers as well, since you only have so much time.

scarface74 9y ago

Apple has allowed you to download the last compatible version for years - that ability goes as far back as at least iOS 5 that came out in 2012.

opportune 9y ago
Sure, but will (networked) apps still work? Is it possible to download apps for previous versions still? If you can revert OS but can't run netflix/facebook/whatever then it's not very useful.
- scarface74 9y ago
  Yes. I have a first generation iPad (running iOS 5) that I rediscovered when I moved. I reset it because I forgot the password. Hulu, Netflix, Crackle, theCW, Plex, Google Drive, CBS (?), and Spotify still work. Apple's productivity apps (Pages,Numbers, and Keynote) also still work and sync with iCloud. On the other hand, I also rediscovered an old first generation iPod Touch (iOS 3). Nothing that requires network access except for the built in apps still works.
  - jorvi 9y ago
    This[0] could give your iPod Touch a slight kick in the butt, and this[1] for your iPad, if you feel inclined to keep using them. [0]http://www.whited00r.com/index?lang=en http://www.whited00r.com/index?lang=en [1]http://www.grayd00r.com http://www.grayd00r.com
    - scarface74 9y ago
      That's really cool. I'm going to definitely try it on my old iPod Touch.
- 2muchcoffeeman 9y ago
  You can to a degree. You’re able to install the last compatible version of an app.
9y ago

ksk 9y ago

>The problem is that the OS upgrades invariably slow down older phones, so even if you're perfectly happy with your iPhone to begin with, it starts to act slow as it gets the newer OS's. It's good that Android users can at least avoid this particular kind of planned obsolescence I have seen this first hand with my 4S. The updates slowed down my phone, which I was perfectly happy with. Unfortunately, Apple blocks you from restoring your phone's OS back to when it worked great. Heh, and then I bought the 6S, so I suppose Apple got my money anyway.

frik 9y ago

> iPhones shove updates down your throats as a user It doesn't, you don't have to update iOS. You can keep an older version. The same with Android. The only difference is that AppStore won't serve you older app-versions that would still work for your iOS version, after some time. While PlayStore still serves you much older app-versions.

urda 9y ago

> iPhones shove updates down your throat as a user. And we have the monster that was Windows XP because of users thinking "updates" are "forced" down throats. iOS is correctly celebrated for having such a high adoption of the "latest and greatest", and certainly hasn't become the demon that is the unpatched Android landscape. So thankfully, from NetSec to the end user, it's a fantastic thing that iOS keeps devices more up to date than android.

dilap 9y ago
I agree, but it is true that newer updates dramatically slow down older hardware.
- aaronbrethorst 9y ago
  Backup, wipe, and reinstall.
  - Yizahi 9y ago
    In some cases it doesn't help. E.g. iOS 7 update for iPad2, iPhone 4/4S etc.
    - dep_b 9y ago
      iOS 7 was pretty rough on anything slower than an iPhone 5
- ben_w 9y ago
  I thought this had been tested recently and shown not true? A psychological illusion or something? I’ve never noticed any significant, let alone dramatic, speed change on any given device from iOS 3 on the original iPad onwards.
  - majani 9y ago
    Apps that represent light websites like Google and Facebook are now 300mb+. With such memory hogging updates, few people with older phones are going to update.