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> To shield the game from hacks on PC, Bungie is preventing applications from injecting code into the game. Whats different to like every PC game since 19somet

> To shield the game from hacks on PC, Bungie is preventing applications from injecting code into the game. Whats different to like every PC game since 19something? I mean thats a core component of most anti cheat tools and copy protections? (And - spoiler alert - they never really work)

jackmott 9y ago
The difference is with an authoritative servers many types of cheats become impossible. If the server doesn't broadcast the position of a player when it is impossible to see them, then the client can't hack to get their position. The player cannot cause themselves to move faster than is possible, or grant themselves health or items. There are still types of cheats that remain possible, like aimbots. Nothing can be done about that.
- rootw0rm 9y ago
  and all that still isn't anything new...
- Grollicus 9y ago
  But with their offline mode they don't have authoritative Servers here so some cheats are inherently possible. Only defense is do be as obscure as possible and hide the important bits in megabytes of fog, aka. a race against the popularity of the game.
- kllrnohj 9y ago
  > If the server doesn't broadcast the position of a player when it is impossible to see them, then the client can't hack to get their position. It's peer2peer, there is no server. There's a server for exp, achievements, and loot, but for actual combat and player positions it's all p2p. Your client know the position of everyone else in the PVP arena. Arguably worse is it also knows the IP of everyone else in the PVP arena, so you don't even need to figure out how to crack the game just open wireshark and fire up your DOS attack of choice.
  - maccard 9y ago
    Peer to peer doesn’t mean every player has full knowledge. A perfectly valid implementation is to mark one player as the “host”, meaning they run a fully authoritative sim, and the other players get treated as clients, and treat it as they would a server. Only the host needs full knowledge in that case. In reverse, a dedicated server doesn’t mean the clients have zero or limited knowledge. A naive dedicated server can simply send all the positions of every player every frame to each of the clients. Another point is that in a dedicated server environmenr the server has a reliable connection, with semi-predictable performance characteristics, whereas if you’re using a PvP model, you’re at the mercy of the the host clients connection, and their machine performance. On a console the performance isn’t as big a deal but on a PC, the host could be mining bitcoin at the same time, or just running on a potato.
    - kllrnohj 9y ago
      > A perfectly valid implementation is to mark one player as the “host”, meaning they run a fully authoritative sim, and the other players get treated as clients, and treat it as they would a server. Only the host needs full knowledge in that case. That's still a client/server model rather than a peer to peer model. A major problem with that model regardless of platform is that it's very disruptive when a player drops, as you have a 1/8 chance of losing your host. This is also not D2's model. > In reverse, a dedicated server doesn’t mean the clients have zero or limited knowledge. A naive dedicated server can simply send all the positions of every player every frame to each of the clients. Of course not, but it's possible for a dedicated server to restrict the information it sends. It's not really possible for peer to peer to do the same.
  - jackmott 9y ago
    >It's peer2peer, there is no server. I don't think you parsed the conversation correctly.
  - golergka 9y ago
    > It's peer2peer, there is no server. Unfortunately, in game development community, the term 'peer 2 peer' doesn't in practice have precise meaning, and is applied even where there is some dedicated "host", which may be simply not as authoritative as with traditional client-server model. I have long ago gave up correcting people when they used these words 'incorrectly'.
rocqua 9y ago
A big difference is that they perma-banned anyone injecting code into that game. That however included anyone using any kind of overlay. Discord, teamspeak or ventrilo 'who is talking' overlay: ban FPS counter from fraps: ban GPU temp monitor: ban Webcam view for streaming: ban Eventually they reverted those bans. People use them on a rather massive scale, and they are very normal. No-one expects them to be banned. Moreover, they gave no warning whatsoever. This means a lot of truly innocent people got caught in the ban.
- caconym_ 9y ago
  I was under the impression that it is not publicly known exactly why false positive bans were handed out or how many there were (outside of Bungie's initial communication of ~400 total). Do you have real information to support the claim you're making that "anyone using any kind of overlay" was banned?
  - rocqua 9y ago
    I do not, this is based on third hand information.
- gruez 9y ago
  this contradicts GP's comment >Bungie is preventing applications from injecting code into the game if the game is preventing overlays from getting injected, but you're bypassing that protection to inject your """legitimate""" overlays, it serves you right to get banned.
  - gambiting 9y ago
    The thing is, why would I, as a customer, give a flying crap about how my voip/webcam/framerate capture client is working internally? I boot the game up, start discord to talk with friends and get banned, and that somehow "serves me right"? Is that a joke? It's supposed to ban cheaters - and using discord is absolutely definitely not cheating.
    - 9y ago

jackmott 9y ago

The difference is with an authoritative servers many types of cheats become impossible. If the server doesn't broadcast the position of a player when it is impossible to see them, then the client can't hack to get their position. The player cannot cause themselves to move faster than is possible, or grant themselves health or items. There are still types of cheats that remain possible, like aimbots. Nothing can be done about that.

rootw0rm 9y ago
and all that still isn't anything new...
Grollicus 9y ago
But with their offline mode they don't have authoritative Servers here so some cheats are inherently possible. Only defense is do be as obscure as possible and hide the important bits in megabytes of fog, aka. a race against the popularity of the game.
kllrnohj 9y ago
> If the server doesn't broadcast the position of a player when it is impossible to see them, then the client can't hack to get their position. It's peer2peer, there is no server. There's a server for exp, achievements, and loot, but for actual combat and player positions it's all p2p. Your client know the position of everyone else in the PVP arena. Arguably worse is it also knows the IP of everyone else in the PVP arena, so you don't even need to figure out how to crack the game just open wireshark and fire up your DOS attack of choice.
- maccard 9y ago
  Peer to peer doesn’t mean every player has full knowledge. A perfectly valid implementation is to mark one player as the “host”, meaning they run a fully authoritative sim, and the other players get treated as clients, and treat it as they would a server. Only the host needs full knowledge in that case. In reverse, a dedicated server doesn’t mean the clients have zero or limited knowledge. A naive dedicated server can simply send all the positions of every player every frame to each of the clients. Another point is that in a dedicated server environmenr the server has a reliable connection, with semi-predictable performance characteristics, whereas if you’re using a PvP model, you’re at the mercy of the the host clients connection, and their machine performance. On a console the performance isn’t as big a deal but on a PC, the host could be mining bitcoin at the same time, or just running on a potato.
  - kllrnohj 9y ago
    > A perfectly valid implementation is to mark one player as the “host”, meaning they run a fully authoritative sim, and the other players get treated as clients, and treat it as they would a server. Only the host needs full knowledge in that case. That's still a client/server model rather than a peer to peer model. A major problem with that model regardless of platform is that it's very disruptive when a player drops, as you have a 1/8 chance of losing your host. This is also not D2's model. > In reverse, a dedicated server doesn’t mean the clients have zero or limited knowledge. A naive dedicated server can simply send all the positions of every player every frame to each of the clients. Of course not, but it's possible for a dedicated server to restrict the information it sends. It's not really possible for peer to peer to do the same.
- jackmott 9y ago
  >It's peer2peer, there is no server. I don't think you parsed the conversation correctly.
- golergka 9y ago
  > It's peer2peer, there is no server. Unfortunately, in game development community, the term 'peer 2 peer' doesn't in practice have precise meaning, and is applied even where there is some dedicated "host", which may be simply not as authoritative as with traditional client-server model. I have long ago gave up correcting people when they used these words 'incorrectly'.

rocqua 9y ago

A big difference is that they perma-banned anyone injecting code into that game. That however included anyone using any kind of overlay. Discord, teamspeak or ventrilo 'who is talking' overlay: ban FPS counter from fraps: ban GPU temp monitor: ban Webcam view for streaming: ban Eventually they reverted those bans. People use them on a rather massive scale, and they are very normal. No-one expects them to be banned. Moreover, they gave no warning whatsoever. This means a lot of truly innocent people got caught in the ban.

caconym_ 9y ago
I was under the impression that it is not publicly known exactly why false positive bans were handed out or how many there were (outside of Bungie's initial communication of ~400 total). Do you have real information to support the claim you're making that "anyone using any kind of overlay" was banned?
- rocqua 9y ago
  I do not, this is based on third hand information.
gruez 9y ago
this contradicts GP's comment >Bungie is preventing applications from injecting code into the game if the game is preventing overlays from getting injected, but you're bypassing that protection to inject your """legitimate""" overlays, it serves you right to get banned.
- gambiting 9y ago
  The thing is, why would I, as a customer, give a flying crap about how my voip/webcam/framerate capture client is working internally? I boot the game up, start discord to talk with friends and get banned, and that somehow "serves me right"? Is that a joke? It's supposed to ban cheaters - and using discord is absolutely definitely not cheating.
  - 9y ago