4 ms·

It saddens me to no extent witnessing a formerly great country falling deep in the abyss of irrelevance, propelled and fueled by a remarkable societal and intel

It saddens me to no extent witnessing a formerly great country falling deep in the abyss of irrelevance, propelled and fueled by a remarkable societal and intellectual isolationism improper in this time and age. Not to mention the implicit bigotry, racism and xenophobia of the whole Brexit deal. Interesting times indeed. In a sense, social media et al. are fulfilling the place that widespread newspapers first, and later radio, played in the marxist and national socialist revolutions already a century and change ago. It seems to me more true that ever that societies that forget the History of Europe (that's of course my own take on the old adagio) are condemned to repeat it. What only remains to be determined now is if Brexit is the drama or the farçe.

gruez 9y ago
>Not to mention the implicit bigotry, racism and xenophobia of the whole Brexit deal explain?
- gejjaxxita 9y ago
  I am an EU citizen living in the UK for 11 years (my whole adult life) so this is from my perspective. The campaign and reasons given for leaving were extremely xenophobic. There was a lot of talk of EU citizens "clogging up" the healthcare system and emigrating to the UK to claim benefits instead of working. Almost none of this was based on fact but it almost certainly swung the vote. Other reasons such as sovereignty were also given but most polls indicate that unhappiness with immigration was the main reason people voted to leave the EU. This in itself isn't necessarily xenophobic, but given the enormous economic benefits of immigration into the UK it's difficult to conclude otherwise.
  - Tech-Noir 9y ago
    Both campaigns were guilty of misinformation but the most blatant outrage was the UK government itself spending £9 ($12) million of the British people's money producing and delivering one-sided pro-EU propaganda to every address in the UK. Edit: For people downvoting the above factual post: Government's £9m EU 'propaganda' leaflet has left public LESS well informed, study shows: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/governments-9m-eu-propaganda-leaflet-8044385 http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/governments-9m-eu-propa... EU referendum: PM 'makes no apology' for £9m EU leaflets: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35984991 http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35984991 The propaganda itself: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/515068/why-the-government-believes-that-voting-to-remain-in-the-european-union-is-the-best-decision-for-the-uk.pdf https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachm...
    - ZenoArrow 9y ago
      I don't know why you're being downvoted. The lack of impartiality in the public debate was pretty obvious, there was almost nobody in the public sphere that was openly exploring all the issues. Would it have been hard to actually listen to each other and get beyond the surface level shouting match that constituted the pre-Brexit debates?
    - 7952 9y ago
      The funny thing is that it back fired. People were sick of these kind of expert opinions and interference. This pamphlet probably turned people over to the leave side. I think it would have been better to make an emotional argument instead of relying on facts. People don't vote objectively. This is rubbish propaganda.
    - tom_mellior 9y ago
      > 'propaganda' leaflet has left public LESS well informed, study shows Two polls at different points in time, without any information about methods and sampling error, gave slightly differing results (23% vs. 21%). This leaflet campaign took place between them. This isn't a very good argument: Weak correlation in noisy data does not mean causation. (Not saying the government was right to do this this way. But calling the thing misinformation that confused voters based on this comparison of polls is a bit exaggerated.)
  - ZenoArrow 9y ago
    > "Other reasons such as sovereignty were also given but most polls indicate that unhappiness with immigration was the main reason people voted to leave the EU. This in itself isn't necessarily xenophobic, but given the enormous economic benefits of immigration into the UK it's difficult to conclude otherwise." UK newspapers have been lying about immigration for years, drastically underplaying the economic benefits. The lies aren't even coherent, on one hand you're told that immigrants are coming to the UK to sponge off the system, on the other hand you're told they're very hard working and prepared to work for lower wages than the locals. I would be highly surprised if a majority of those who voted on the grounds of immigration would also understand the economic benefits of immigration. The UK news media had a large part to play in the negative aspects of the Brexit vote. For those who are unfamiliar with the quality of UK news media, it's quite hard to get across how bad they are, but here's just one example (totally unrelated to Brexit) that hopefully starts to build a picture of what passes for news coverage in the UK: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWqvWFUj51k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWqvWFUj51k
- mbroncano 9y ago
  I'll leave that for fine gentlemen such Mr. Farage or BJ. Hopefully they'll be kind enough to explain what I'm referring to by just elaborating on their position on this whole affair.
neilwilson 9y ago
Time to read up on some British History. The last time this happened was during the reign of George II when the UK rejected Europe and Hanover and turned its eyes to the world. The tune "Rule Britannia" was the marching song for the 'patriots' who pushed for an independent UK based policy. The result was the industrial revolution and the UK becoming the pre-eminent power on Earth. So we've sort of done this before.
- gejjaxxita 9y ago
  >Time to read up on some British History. The last time this happened No it wasn't. This has never happened. It's really hard to conclude that anything so tangentially related and which happened such a long time ago could possibly be relevant.
- mbroncano 9y ago
  Thanks for the advise (as well as the down voting, certainly supporting my point) but it hardly seems relevant to this situation. Comparing the sad, utter mess that the UK currently seems to be, to the 18th century booming empire can at best provoke a discreet laugh. Allow me to express my sincere gratitude for that, smiling is quite underrated these days. The biggest problem seems to be lack of acknowledgement of the UK role in the world, at best dwindled ever since they lost both WW, the only colonial territory worth mentioning (i.e. India) and recently becoming CHAV land. The rest of the involved parties (such as Germany and France, but also including the most of western Europe) took notice of how the world was, and did their best to ensure their position in the coming years. To some remarkable success I must say, the EU (even when discounting the 28th member) is still the biggest economic zone in the world, and after the final departure of the UK it will certainly develop a tighter union including a common military, new federal institutions and so on. All of which seems to escape the 'Rule Britannia' crowd such as you. Congratulations on your Darwin price! Maybe is time for you to read up on some science ...
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
mike-cardwell 9y ago
The UK is a small country with an inflated influence in the World mainly due to "recent" history - empire, wealth etc. The UK's standing in the World will continue to fall over time, regardless of EU membership. It simply does not have the natural resources to compete anymore. This is nothing to be sad about. The idea that the UK is more isolationist, bigoted, racist or xenophobic than any other country is baseless, and it contributes in no way to the decline in World power.
- mbroncano 9y ago
  Correct. But the fact that they're leaving the successful economic environment they're currently sort of privileged members, which helps them avoid becoming irrelevant, based on clearly misinformed and mostly implicitly supremacist arguments, implies the idea that they are indeed. We can argue all day, but the campaign 'remains' (sorry for the pun) in our memories. Denial will not make things improve, nor chanting 'Rule Britannia' like some other commentators.
wanda 9y ago
Britain is no more and no less bigoted/racist/xenophobic than any other country. (I say this as a moderately well-travelled Briton who recently left Blighty to live and work in Europe). The only difference is that it was decided that an exercise in direct democracy would be a good idea, and thus those with less savoury opinions were given an opportunity to popularise those opinions and enact social change, when in other countries they either don't need to because they rule the roost, or they don't get the opportunity to because other governments know that direct democracy is a stupid idea. > "formerly great" Define "great" – if you meant: "formerly the largest empire in history" – then I find your opposition to racism and bigotry rather at odds with that sentiment. You think Britons were less racist when they reigned over much of the world? You think colonial rule over "barbaric" nations was a mark of greatness? Or is racism justified when you have such power? Alternatively, if you meant "formerly a contented member of the EU, that appeared to be a champion of globalisation, diversity and tolerance" I fail to see how the country has lost its greatness. It's still a largely open and tolerant country, this hasn't changed just because a misinformed public voted to leave the EU. I would hardly say of the USA that it was "formerly great" because its citizens elected the current president into office. I believe the American people are still largely tolerant, those who are intolerant were so already. > "improper in this time and age" You overestimate humanity. -------- Ultimately, your mistake is to equate the UK's decline to its leaving the EU. The UK has been declining in influence for a long time. It was nearly bankrupt after WW2. The years after WW2 saw the continuing rise of the USA and the former USSR. The UK's empire has been dismantled over time and without the resources of the world at its disposal, the UK's influence could only decrease until it was at a level appropriate for a country of its size. The UK will probably miss its privileged membership to the EU, and it will decline more in the short and medium term, but in the long term it will bounce back. What the UK needs now is a government with some modern economic, political and technical acumen. Unfortunately I do not believe any party currently in existence in the UK can provide such government. I miss some things about my home land, but in so many ways it is stuck in the past, because government after government has dragged its heels when it comes to updating infrastructure and public services.

gruez 9y ago

>Not to mention the implicit bigotry, racism and xenophobia of the whole Brexit deal explain?

gejjaxxita 9y ago
I am an EU citizen living in the UK for 11 years (my whole adult life) so this is from my perspective. The campaign and reasons given for leaving were extremely xenophobic. There was a lot of talk of EU citizens "clogging up" the healthcare system and emigrating to the UK to claim benefits instead of working. Almost none of this was based on fact but it almost certainly swung the vote. Other reasons such as sovereignty were also given but most polls indicate that unhappiness with immigration was the main reason people voted to leave the EU. This in itself isn't necessarily xenophobic, but given the enormous economic benefits of immigration into the UK it's difficult to conclude otherwise.
- Tech-Noir 9y ago
  Both campaigns were guilty of misinformation but the most blatant outrage was the UK government itself spending £9 ($12) million of the British people's money producing and delivering one-sided pro-EU propaganda to every address in the UK. Edit: For people downvoting the above factual post: Government's £9m EU 'propaganda' leaflet has left public LESS well informed, study shows: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/governments-9m-eu-propaganda-leaflet-8044385 http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/governments-9m-eu-propa... EU referendum: PM 'makes no apology' for £9m EU leaflets: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35984991 http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35984991 The propaganda itself: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/515068/why-the-government-believes-that-voting-to-remain-in-the-european-union-is-the-best-decision-for-the-uk.pdf https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachm...
  - ZenoArrow 9y ago
    I don't know why you're being downvoted. The lack of impartiality in the public debate was pretty obvious, there was almost nobody in the public sphere that was openly exploring all the issues. Would it have been hard to actually listen to each other and get beyond the surface level shouting match that constituted the pre-Brexit debates?
  - 7952 9y ago
    The funny thing is that it back fired. People were sick of these kind of expert opinions and interference. This pamphlet probably turned people over to the leave side. I think it would have been better to make an emotional argument instead of relying on facts. People don't vote objectively. This is rubbish propaganda.
  - tom_mellior 9y ago
    > 'propaganda' leaflet has left public LESS well informed, study shows Two polls at different points in time, without any information about methods and sampling error, gave slightly differing results (23% vs. 21%). This leaflet campaign took place between them. This isn't a very good argument: Weak correlation in noisy data does not mean causation. (Not saying the government was right to do this this way. But calling the thing misinformation that confused voters based on this comparison of polls is a bit exaggerated.)
- ZenoArrow 9y ago
  > "Other reasons such as sovereignty were also given but most polls indicate that unhappiness with immigration was the main reason people voted to leave the EU. This in itself isn't necessarily xenophobic, but given the enormous economic benefits of immigration into the UK it's difficult to conclude otherwise." UK newspapers have been lying about immigration for years, drastically underplaying the economic benefits. The lies aren't even coherent, on one hand you're told that immigrants are coming to the UK to sponge off the system, on the other hand you're told they're very hard working and prepared to work for lower wages than the locals. I would be highly surprised if a majority of those who voted on the grounds of immigration would also understand the economic benefits of immigration. The UK news media had a large part to play in the negative aspects of the Brexit vote. For those who are unfamiliar with the quality of UK news media, it's quite hard to get across how bad they are, but here's just one example (totally unrelated to Brexit) that hopefully starts to build a picture of what passes for news coverage in the UK: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWqvWFUj51k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWqvWFUj51k
mbroncano 9y ago
I'll leave that for fine gentlemen such Mr. Farage or BJ. Hopefully they'll be kind enough to explain what I'm referring to by just elaborating on their position on this whole affair.

neilwilson 9y ago

Time to read up on some British History. The last time this happened was during the reign of George II when the UK rejected Europe and Hanover and turned its eyes to the world. The tune "Rule Britannia" was the marching song for the 'patriots' who pushed for an independent UK based policy. The result was the industrial revolution and the UK becoming the pre-eminent power on Earth. So we've sort of done this before.

gejjaxxita 9y ago
>Time to read up on some British History. The last time this happened No it wasn't. This has never happened. It's really hard to conclude that anything so tangentially related and which happened such a long time ago could possibly be relevant.
mbroncano 9y ago
Thanks for the advise (as well as the down voting, certainly supporting my point) but it hardly seems relevant to this situation. Comparing the sad, utter mess that the UK currently seems to be, to the 18th century booming empire can at best provoke a discreet laugh. Allow me to express my sincere gratitude for that, smiling is quite underrated these days. The biggest problem seems to be lack of acknowledgement of the UK role in the world, at best dwindled ever since they lost both WW, the only colonial territory worth mentioning (i.e. India) and recently becoming CHAV land. The rest of the involved parties (such as Germany and France, but also including the most of western Europe) took notice of how the world was, and did their best to ensure their position in the coming years. To some remarkable success I must say, the EU (even when discounting the 28th member) is still the biggest economic zone in the world, and after the final departure of the UK it will certainly develop a tighter union including a common military, new federal institutions and so on. All of which seems to escape the 'Rule Britannia' crowd such as you. Congratulations on your Darwin price! Maybe is time for you to read up on some science ...
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]

mike-cardwell 9y ago

The UK is a small country with an inflated influence in the World mainly due to "recent" history - empire, wealth etc. The UK's standing in the World will continue to fall over time, regardless of EU membership. It simply does not have the natural resources to compete anymore. This is nothing to be sad about. The idea that the UK is more isolationist, bigoted, racist or xenophobic than any other country is baseless, and it contributes in no way to the decline in World power.

mbroncano 9y ago
Correct. But the fact that they're leaving the successful economic environment they're currently sort of privileged members, which helps them avoid becoming irrelevant, based on clearly misinformed and mostly implicitly supremacist arguments, implies the idea that they are indeed. We can argue all day, but the campaign 'remains' (sorry for the pun) in our memories. Denial will not make things improve, nor chanting 'Rule Britannia' like some other commentators.

wanda 9y ago

Britain is no more and no less bigoted/racist/xenophobic than any other country. (I say this as a moderately well-travelled Briton who recently left Blighty to live and work in Europe). The only difference is that it was decided that an exercise in direct democracy would be a good idea, and thus those with less savoury opinions were given an opportunity to popularise those opinions and enact social change, when in other countries they either don't need to because they rule the roost, or they don't get the opportunity to because other governments know that direct democracy is a stupid idea. > "formerly great" Define "great" – if you meant: "formerly the largest empire in history" – then I find your opposition to racism and bigotry rather at odds with that sentiment. You think Britons were less racist when they reigned over much of the world? You think colonial rule over "barbaric" nations was a mark of greatness? Or is racism justified when you have such power? Alternatively, if you meant "formerly a contented member of the EU, that appeared to be a champion of globalisation, diversity and tolerance" I fail to see how the country has lost its greatness. It's still a largely open and tolerant country, this hasn't changed just because a misinformed public voted to leave the EU. I would hardly say of the USA that it was "formerly great" because its citizens elected the current president into office. I believe the American people are still largely tolerant, those who are intolerant were so already. > "improper in this time and age" You overestimate humanity. -------- Ultimately, your mistake is to equate the UK's decline to its leaving the EU. The UK has been declining in influence for a long time. It was nearly bankrupt after WW2. The years after WW2 saw the continuing rise of the USA and the former USSR. The UK's empire has been dismantled over time and without the resources of the world at its disposal, the UK's influence could only decrease until it was at a level appropriate for a country of its size. The UK will probably miss its privileged membership to the EU, and it will decline more in the short and medium term, but in the long term it will bounce back. What the UK needs now is a government with some modern economic, political and technical acumen. Unfortunately I do not believe any party currently in existence in the UK can provide such government. I miss some things about my home land, but in so many ways it is stuck in the past, because government after government has dragged its heels when it comes to updating infrastructure and public services.