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I can't help but think that UBI is the modern grain dole[0] and while it sounds like a great idea on the surface and would probably work out great for a number

I can't help but think that UBI is the modern grain dole[0] and while it sounds like a great idea on the surface and would probably work out great for a number of individuals in the short run... it will also inevitably lead to the use of UBI as an easy political tool for populist leaders to use to come to power, leading to the a further degradation of the republic. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cura_Annonae https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cura_Annonae

tareqak 9y ago
Doesn't that mean that non-populist politicians should get together and actually implement some form of effective UBI to head off a dangerous and competent populist?
- trendia 9y ago
  That sounds a lot like Otto von Bismarck [0] . Fearful of the socialists, he tried banning them, but that didn't work. So, instead, he introduced "Soclialism-lite" with improved worker conditions, social benefits, and semi-public medicine. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Socialism_(Germany) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Socialism_(Germany)
  - RobertoG 9y ago
    So, socialism (the fear of) improved the live of those people. Sounds like a good deal.
- creaghpatr 9y ago
  That's exactly what's happening right now. It's no coincidence Tech barons are pushing this concept before Congress cracks down.
- gooseus 9y ago
  That doesn't really make sense to me... any public policy can be rendered ineffective by subsequent politicians. So a non-populist politician implements an "effective" UBI policy, but since it's only effective for a short amount of time because things change and people realize later that it's not as fair/effective as they thought... or else you can only pass a compromise bill and it's really not effective at all, but you're told it will be (assuming you keep voting for X!). I mean, why should everyone get the same amount? Or why should the percentage difference between my UBI this other groups be different by X amount? Suddenly the UBI is just a new way to target voting blocks with promises of adjustments in their favor... essentially like how the tax code is used politically. The only way to implement UBI effectively is to implement it a way where it can't be used as a populist political tool ever, which I think is impossible. The most messed up thing I find about UBI is that it's the solution put forth by companies which are actively avoiding paying taxes through loopholes and havens. Rather than someone like Zuckerberg thinking "Hmm... maybe I could help impoverished people by spreading my wealth to my employees more evenly and by paying my fair share in corporate/personal taxes to the local/state/federal govt?" Instead they say "I deserve billions of dollars in personal wealth and to stay competitive (despite my effective monopoly) I must utilize every tax loophole possible and it's up to the government to find some other way to find the revenue to keep my users/employees at a living wage."
creaghpatr 9y ago
A grain dole can't be manipulated or inflated away.

tareqak 9y ago

Doesn't that mean that non-populist politicians should get together and actually implement some form of effective UBI to head off a dangerous and competent populist?

trendia 9y ago
That sounds a lot like Otto von Bismarck [0] . Fearful of the socialists, he tried banning them, but that didn't work. So, instead, he introduced "Soclialism-lite" with improved worker conditions, social benefits, and semi-public medicine. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Socialism_(Germany) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Socialism_(Germany)
- RobertoG 9y ago
  So, socialism (the fear of) improved the live of those people. Sounds like a good deal.
creaghpatr 9y ago
That's exactly what's happening right now. It's no coincidence Tech barons are pushing this concept before Congress cracks down.
gooseus 9y ago
That doesn't really make sense to me... any public policy can be rendered ineffective by subsequent politicians. So a non-populist politician implements an "effective" UBI policy, but since it's only effective for a short amount of time because things change and people realize later that it's not as fair/effective as they thought... or else you can only pass a compromise bill and it's really not effective at all, but you're told it will be (assuming you keep voting for X!). I mean, why should everyone get the same amount? Or why should the percentage difference between my UBI this other groups be different by X amount? Suddenly the UBI is just a new way to target voting blocks with promises of adjustments in their favor... essentially like how the tax code is used politically. The only way to implement UBI effectively is to implement it a way where it can't be used as a populist political tool ever, which I think is impossible. The most messed up thing I find about UBI is that it's the solution put forth by companies which are actively avoiding paying taxes through loopholes and havens. Rather than someone like Zuckerberg thinking "Hmm... maybe I could help impoverished people by spreading my wealth to my employees more evenly and by paying my fair share in corporate/personal taxes to the local/state/federal govt?" Instead they say "I deserve billions of dollars in personal wealth and to stay competitive (despite my effective monopoly) I must utilize every tax loophole possible and it's up to the government to find some other way to find the revenue to keep my users/employees at a living wage."

creaghpatr 9y ago

A grain dole can't be manipulated or inflated away.