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Can we talk about how to hack this? Is there camera-defeating reflective make-up that I can apply before going through an airport? How does one defeat these tec

Can we talk about how to hack this? Is there camera-defeating reflective make-up that I can apply before going through an airport? How does one defeat these technologies effectively so that they are no longer useful to governments?

logfromblammo 9y ago
CV Dazzle did a good job of making a face look like a not-face a few years ago, but I'm not sure how well it would work today. I don't think there's any kind of make-up that would be visible to a camera, but not obvious to the naked eye, and still be able to defeat face recognition. My plan would be to create a new religion in the United States that makes the wearing of face masks and veils in public an essential tenet. After the traditional new-religion battles over tax status and state recognition have been won in the US, shame the European countries into reforming their enabling laws using the mallet of religious liberty. The downside is that you would likely have to actually believe--or at least convincingly fake--that showing your true face in public is taboo, and that being forcibly unmasked is a horrifying violation of your privacy and personal dignity. I recall reading a short story that might be useful as basis, wherein everyone wore a mask at all times, and never spoke without providing musical accompaniment from one of a variety of instruments. The economy was based upon reputation and character rather than money, such that you could get most valuable things just by asking for them, but the shopkeepers had to decide that you were good enough to bear them first. The low-status masks were somewhat standardized and uniform, such that you could be "red goblin" for a day, and only play your pocket xylophone, and thus achieve a measure of public anonymity. Then, the next day, you could be "glorious fiery phoenix" and play your double-stringed lyre with brass resonators, and everyone would know you to be a really special and important person, because the craftspeople would never give away their best work to just anybody. Unfortunately, I have forgotten the title and the author, and web searching is turning up nothing. And unfortunately, that is a very long-term strategy, which would take many years and a lot of cooperation to pull off. Right now, anything you are likely to do to defeat automated facial recognition is likely to get you additional attention from human cops. And depending on where you are, that "attention" may also include extrajudicial punishment for non-conformity.
- rtkwe 9y ago
  This it [0]? Googled "short story masks reputation economy musical instrument", it's pretty good at finding seemingly super obscure, usually through someone else describing it. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/12632596-the-moon-moth https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/12632596-the-moon-moth
  - logfromblammo 9y ago
    Yes, that's the one! But it was just text, not a graphic novel. It must have been in my Jack Vance e-book.
    - rtkwe 9y ago
      Found a text only version too. Don't have the graphic novel to know how close it follows the text. http://www.unexploredworlds.com/RealPulp/htm/rpulp145.htm http://www.unexploredworlds.com/RealPulp/htm/rpulp145.htm edit: Huh there's a weird repetition in the middle it looks like, unless there's two almost exactly identical passages.
Sargos 9y ago
Honestly? You can't. Even if a perfect spray did exist you wouldn't be able to get even close to half of the population to use it. It would actually be a small minority. There's actually quite a large group of people out there that support things like this. Since you could only ever get a small group to attempt this it would only draw more scrutiny onto yourself and make your life harder. It wouldn't be enough of an inconvenience for the authorities to care. The largest group I've heard of is the opt-out of scanners group who refused and always demands xrays. It even made the media. It faded away and now the one or two people that care take an extra few minutes in security getting a pat down. No real change happened.
- JBlue42 9y ago
  >There's actually quite a large group of people out there that support things like this. Isn't that kind of the issue? The majority, some of whom will rarely if ever travel by airline, are fine with this crap because they somehow thinks it makes them "safer" vs terrorists. >pat-downs I used to opt-out up until a year ago. I felt like it was the only way I could take some small stand against the security theatre crap. They had just introduced the new 'enhanced' pat-downs - back some guy being much more firm and thorough with his touches and wiping the back of his hand across my dick 4-5 times. That sat with me (still does) and I said fuck it, the system got me, and I do the body scanner now. Beyond the mass surveillance BS, I'd really like us to take on the state-sanctioned sexual assault that has been going on since 9/11. I've seen grannies and pre-teens patted down too. So ridiculous. Checking the private areas of citizens doesn't make this country safer.
- sailfast 9y ago
  I think the main thing here is that if it's easily defeatable then it won't be practical to implement at a high level to find threats. That said, it's not like metal detectors work all that well either and... here we are.
kabdib 9y ago
Hmmm. A few years ago I was talking with a guy who worked on a system that pointed IR cameras at hands and did gesture recognition on them. They were doing user testing, and one of the folks they tried it out with happened to be a wiring contractor who was in the building at the time. It didn't recognize his hands; the IR cameras could not see them. Turns out that the lubricant he was using to pull cables through conduit was blinding them. I don't know what the lubricant was, but hopefully this reduces your search space dramatically :-)
iamcasen 9y ago
I have only ever heard of painting actual shapes on to your face with makeup. I imagine that, whatever your technique, you will get noticed and stopped by security. Especially if the makeup obscures how your face looks compared to your photo ID.

logfromblammo 9y ago

CV Dazzle did a good job of making a face look like a not-face a few years ago, but I'm not sure how well it would work today. I don't think there's any kind of make-up that would be visible to a camera, but not obvious to the naked eye, and still be able to defeat face recognition. My plan would be to create a new religion in the United States that makes the wearing of face masks and veils in public an essential tenet. After the traditional new-religion battles over tax status and state recognition have been won in the US, shame the European countries into reforming their enabling laws using the mallet of religious liberty. The downside is that you would likely have to actually believe--or at least convincingly fake--that showing your true face in public is taboo, and that being forcibly unmasked is a horrifying violation of your privacy and personal dignity. I recall reading a short story that might be useful as basis, wherein everyone wore a mask at all times, and never spoke without providing musical accompaniment from one of a variety of instruments. The economy was based upon reputation and character rather than money, such that you could get most valuable things just by asking for them, but the shopkeepers had to decide that you were good enough to bear them first. The low-status masks were somewhat standardized and uniform, such that you could be "red goblin" for a day, and only play your pocket xylophone, and thus achieve a measure of public anonymity. Then, the next day, you could be "glorious fiery phoenix" and play your double-stringed lyre with brass resonators, and everyone would know you to be a really special and important person, because the craftspeople would never give away their best work to just anybody. Unfortunately, I have forgotten the title and the author, and web searching is turning up nothing. And unfortunately, that is a very long-term strategy, which would take many years and a lot of cooperation to pull off. Right now, anything you are likely to do to defeat automated facial recognition is likely to get you additional attention from human cops. And depending on where you are, that "attention" may also include extrajudicial punishment for non-conformity.

rtkwe 9y ago
This it [0]? Googled "short story masks reputation economy musical instrument", it's pretty good at finding seemingly super obscure, usually through someone else describing it. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/12632596-the-moon-moth https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/12632596-the-moon-moth
- logfromblammo 9y ago
  Yes, that's the one! But it was just text, not a graphic novel. It must have been in my Jack Vance e-book.
  - rtkwe 9y ago
    Found a text only version too. Don't have the graphic novel to know how close it follows the text. http://www.unexploredworlds.com/RealPulp/htm/rpulp145.htm http://www.unexploredworlds.com/RealPulp/htm/rpulp145.htm edit: Huh there's a weird repetition in the middle it looks like, unless there's two almost exactly identical passages.

Sargos 9y ago

Honestly? You can't. Even if a perfect spray did exist you wouldn't be able to get even close to half of the population to use it. It would actually be a small minority. There's actually quite a large group of people out there that support things like this. Since you could only ever get a small group to attempt this it would only draw more scrutiny onto yourself and make your life harder. It wouldn't be enough of an inconvenience for the authorities to care. The largest group I've heard of is the opt-out of scanners group who refused and always demands xrays. It even made the media. It faded away and now the one or two people that care take an extra few minutes in security getting a pat down. No real change happened.

JBlue42 9y ago
>There's actually quite a large group of people out there that support things like this. Isn't that kind of the issue? The majority, some of whom will rarely if ever travel by airline, are fine with this crap because they somehow thinks it makes them "safer" vs terrorists. >pat-downs I used to opt-out up until a year ago. I felt like it was the only way I could take some small stand against the security theatre crap. They had just introduced the new 'enhanced' pat-downs - back some guy being much more firm and thorough with his touches and wiping the back of his hand across my dick 4-5 times. That sat with me (still does) and I said fuck it, the system got me, and I do the body scanner now. Beyond the mass surveillance BS, I'd really like us to take on the state-sanctioned sexual assault that has been going on since 9/11. I've seen grannies and pre-teens patted down too. So ridiculous. Checking the private areas of citizens doesn't make this country safer.
sailfast 9y ago
I think the main thing here is that if it's easily defeatable then it won't be practical to implement at a high level to find threats. That said, it's not like metal detectors work all that well either and... here we are.

kabdib 9y ago

Hmmm. A few years ago I was talking with a guy who worked on a system that pointed IR cameras at hands and did gesture recognition on them. They were doing user testing, and one of the folks they tried it out with happened to be a wiring contractor who was in the building at the time. It didn't recognize his hands; the IR cameras could not see them. Turns out that the lubricant he was using to pull cables through conduit was blinding them. I don't know what the lubricant was, but hopefully this reduces your search space dramatically :-)

iamcasen 9y ago

I have only ever heard of painting actual shapes on to your face with makeup. I imagine that, whatever your technique, you will get noticed and stopped by security. Especially if the makeup obscures how your face looks compared to your photo ID.