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I get the dystopian flavour of surveillance in general society -- but I don't really get why it's specifically dystopian that you are recorded by a camera while

I get the dystopian flavour of surveillance in general society -- but I don't really get why it's specifically dystopian that you are recorded by a camera while you stand in line to hand over your government issued photo ID to a government agent with pretty broad discretion to make your day pretty awful. I'm pretty sure those cameras at Gatwick are supposed to track how long the waiting time is, not to "surveil" you in any meaningful sense.

StavrosK 9y ago
> I'm pretty sure those cameras at Gatwick are supposed to track how long the waiting time is Then they did a really good job of making me feel like I'm in the opening scene of Half Life 2.
frostwhale 9y ago
While I agree in general, airports are a bit different. Reading the title of this article I thought, "Good". It's their job to surveil and monitor the airport to the best of technology and law. It is our job to regulate what big brother can and can't do. While security is ridiculously dystopian and over the top, the climate of our world has forced this in airports, so of course they're going to be using all the tech possible. We just need to set the rules for this tech.
- zkms 9y ago
  > It's their job to surveil and monitor the airport to the best of technology and law. It is our job to regulate what big brother can and can't do. While security is ridiculously dystopian and over the top, the climate of our world has forced this in airports, so of course they're going to be using all the tech possible. I strongly concur that civil aviation needs to be protected from malfeasance. However, all this fancy iris/face-tracking machinery is only useful for, well, tracking and identifying people and doesn't do anything to prevent people from artfully concealing explosives through security checkpoints. Furthermore, it's possible to hide on-body contraband from full-body imaging devices: https://www.usenix.org/system/files/conference/usenixsecurity14/sec14-paper-mowery.pdf https://www.usenix.org/system/files/conference/usenixsecurit... Afaict, there's too much development/use of methodology that has secondary uses for mass surveillance (and isn't even good at detecting explosives), and not enough focus on detecting energetic materials. Large-scale automated iris/face detection on noncooperative human targets is a dangerous tool in the wrong hands and it is frankly disingenuous to develop it (and make its use socially-acceptable) in the name of improving civil aviation security.
  - frostwhale 9y ago
    That's a fair counter. I am assuming the technology already exists in fully functional and efficient form, and that the TSA is just applying it to the airport.
zkms 9y ago
> I don't really get why it's specifically dystopian that you are recorded by a camera while you stand in line to hand over your government issued photo ID to a government agent with pretty broad discretion to make your day pretty awful. Because automated iris-at-a-distance systems that can track and identify non-cooperative human targets scale a lot differently than tetchy border guards. Pervasive CCTV is one thing if it's mostly not watched (and only used to piece together what happened after incidents), pervasive facial/iris-recognition that is watched by computers 24/7 and tracks every single human's movements is a whole other thing. Also frankly, given you recognise the ability of customs/border/immigration personnel to make your day awful, why do you seem fine giving those people even more power and methods to pervasively surveil and track people? > I'm pretty sure those cameras at Gatwick are supposed to track how long the waiting time is Even per publicly-available information, this is flagrantly false. Queue management does not require enrolment of the passenger's face/iris data with their boarding pass, as indeed happens at Gatwick. This is explicitly for tracking passengers through every area of the airport: http://www.professionalsecurity.co.uk/news/press-releases/mflow-helps-gatwick-airport-win-best-security-and-immigration-experience-award/ http://www.professionalsecurity.co.uk/news/press-releases/mf... http://www.planetbiometrics.com/article-details/i/1850/desc/london-gatwick-airport-makes-further-use-of-biometrics/ http://www.planetbiometrics.com/article-details/i/1850/desc/...
Tech-Noir 9y ago
A few years ago I experienced something similar at Heathrow. According to Heathrow's website[1] it's because: airports that operate common departure lounges[2] must comply with UK Border Force conditions that are necessary to prevent any circumvention of UK immigration controls. This includes a requirement to capture a facial biometric for each domestic passenger on entry and exit of a departure lounge in order to verify their identity. [1] http://www.heathrow.com/departures/security-and-baggage/flying-within-the-uk-and-ireland http://www.heathrow.com/departures/security-and-baggage/flyi... [2] AIUI what they mean by "common departure lounge" is a lounge accessible to international and domestic passengers without having to pass fully through to arrivals and re-checking in on another flight, but I could be wrong.

StavrosK 9y ago

> I'm pretty sure those cameras at Gatwick are supposed to track how long the waiting time is Then they did a really good job of making me feel like I'm in the opening scene of Half Life 2.

frostwhale 9y ago

While I agree in general, airports are a bit different. Reading the title of this article I thought, "Good". It's their job to surveil and monitor the airport to the best of technology and law. It is our job to regulate what big brother can and can't do. While security is ridiculously dystopian and over the top, the climate of our world has forced this in airports, so of course they're going to be using all the tech possible. We just need to set the rules for this tech.

zkms 9y ago
> It's their job to surveil and monitor the airport to the best of technology and law. It is our job to regulate what big brother can and can't do. While security is ridiculously dystopian and over the top, the climate of our world has forced this in airports, so of course they're going to be using all the tech possible. I strongly concur that civil aviation needs to be protected from malfeasance. However, all this fancy iris/face-tracking machinery is only useful for, well, tracking and identifying people and doesn't do anything to prevent people from artfully concealing explosives through security checkpoints. Furthermore, it's possible to hide on-body contraband from full-body imaging devices: https://www.usenix.org/system/files/conference/usenixsecurity14/sec14-paper-mowery.pdf https://www.usenix.org/system/files/conference/usenixsecurit... Afaict, there's too much development/use of methodology that has secondary uses for mass surveillance (and isn't even good at detecting explosives), and not enough focus on detecting energetic materials. Large-scale automated iris/face detection on noncooperative human targets is a dangerous tool in the wrong hands and it is frankly disingenuous to develop it (and make its use socially-acceptable) in the name of improving civil aviation security.
- frostwhale 9y ago
  That's a fair counter. I am assuming the technology already exists in fully functional and efficient form, and that the TSA is just applying it to the airport.

zkms 9y ago

> I don't really get why it's specifically dystopian that you are recorded by a camera while you stand in line to hand over your government issued photo ID to a government agent with pretty broad discretion to make your day pretty awful. Because automated iris-at-a-distance systems that can track and identify non-cooperative human targets scale a lot differently than tetchy border guards. Pervasive CCTV is one thing if it's mostly not watched (and only used to piece together what happened after incidents), pervasive facial/iris-recognition that is watched by computers 24/7 and tracks every single human's movements is a whole other thing. Also frankly, given you recognise the ability of customs/border/immigration personnel to make your day awful, why do you seem fine giving those people even more power and methods to pervasively surveil and track people? > I'm pretty sure those cameras at Gatwick are supposed to track how long the waiting time is Even per publicly-available information, this is flagrantly false. Queue management does not require enrolment of the passenger's face/iris data with their boarding pass, as indeed happens at Gatwick. This is explicitly for tracking passengers through every area of the airport: http://www.professionalsecurity.co.uk/news/press-releases/mflow-helps-gatwick-airport-win-best-security-and-immigration-experience-award/ http://www.professionalsecurity.co.uk/news/press-releases/mf... http://www.planetbiometrics.com/article-details/i/1850/desc/london-gatwick-airport-makes-further-use-of-biometrics/ http://www.planetbiometrics.com/article-details/i/1850/desc/...

Tech-Noir 9y ago

A few years ago I experienced something similar at Heathrow. According to Heathrow's website[1] it's because: airports that operate common departure lounges[2] must comply with UK Border Force conditions that are necessary to prevent any circumvention of UK immigration controls. This includes a requirement to capture a facial biometric for each domestic passenger on entry and exit of a departure lounge in order to verify their identity. [1] http://www.heathrow.com/departures/security-and-baggage/flying-within-the-uk-and-ireland http://www.heathrow.com/departures/security-and-baggage/flyi... [2] AIUI what they mean by "common departure lounge" is a lounge accessible to international and domestic passengers without having to pass fully through to arrivals and re-checking in on another flight, but I could be wrong.