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This is why libertarianism doesn't prevail. Most people don't want to live in a caveat emptor world. All goods have hidden qualities you can't check before buyi

This is why libertarianism doesn't prevail. Most people don't want to live in a caveat emptor world. All goods have hidden qualities you can't check before buying, which need to be regulated.

muninn_ 9y ago
This is nonsense. You can be critical of libertarianism but this is not a “reason that libertarianism doesn’t prevail”. You can easily find reviews online - airline x has bad service, airline y has small seats, etc. and then make a choice whether to fly on the airline. And to be frank, right now the airlines suck pretty hardcore (and airports too) because they are regulated (TSA anyone?). I’m all for critiquing politics ideologies, I’m a social democrat and I think it’s valuable to find flaws and improve them, but this is a very silly “critique” of libertarianism that just doesn’t hold up to any scrutiny.
- iamnothere 9y ago
  Muninn_'s response was flagged to death, but it was a good faith response to the parent. (Sad to see this kind of behavior creeping into HN, where disagreement is flagged instead of being engaged with directly.) I am also sympathetic to the libertarian impulse (competition will fix it!), but as you pointed out, heavy regulation likely prevents that. I'm sure that there are SOME airline regulations we can safely roll back, but how many, and would this actually have a measurable impact on the competitive landscape? (Serious question!) I suspect that there is some regulatory capture going on, but it isn't likely to be visible except to industry insiders.
  - Clubber 9y ago
    I believe competition can fix a lot of things, but to ensure competition, you have to block most, if not all mergers.
Cthulhu_ 9y ago
It's not about libertarianism, it's about a race to the bottom and apparently, there's more than enough people willing to sit in smaller seats if it saves them a few bucks.
- manyxcxi 9y ago
  I don’t think it’s a race to the bottom because people are okay with what we’re getting. We have no other options, at best, we get to choose our flavor of shit pie. I have been able to successfully avoid United for the better part of a decade and I fly Alaska and Southwest the most because I’ve had a satisfactory level of service as the norm with them, not because their prices are the cheapest- else I’d be flying Spirit airlines.
  - mgkimsal 9y ago
    Correct. We don't sit in smaller seats to save 'a few bucks', we generally sit in smaller seats because 1. they're the only ones available for the dates/times we need 2. paying 40-150% more is prohibitive for many folks (and generally, is not a 'few bucks'). If we had 30 inch and 28 inch pitch seats, and you could choose, and people would pay, say $10 more for 30 inch, that might get us a bit closer to the original comment, but we're nowhere near that set of options.
    - hkmurakami 9y ago
      We do have "pay $50 more for 2 more inches of leg space", which in my experience a decent number of people are paying for on United Economy Plus. (I am happy to pay this price on longhaul)
  - gozur88 9y ago
    >I don’t think it’s a race to the bottom because people are okay with what we’re getting. We have no other options, at best, we get to choose our flavor of shit pie. We have no other options because most people don't care as much about seat size as they care about money. The market is working, here, it's just not working in a way that you appreciate.

This is why libertarianism doesn't prevail. Most people don't want to live in a caveat emptor world. All goods have hidden qualities you can't check before buying, which need to be regulated.

muninn_ 9y ago

This is nonsense. You can be critical of libertarianism but this is not a “reason that libertarianism doesn’t prevail”. You can easily find reviews online - airline x has bad service, airline y has small seats, etc. and then make a choice whether to fly on the airline. And to be frank, right now the airlines suck pretty hardcore (and airports too) because they are regulated (TSA anyone?). I’m all for critiquing politics ideologies, I’m a social democrat and I think it’s valuable to find flaws and improve them, but this is a very silly “critique” of libertarianism that just doesn’t hold up to any scrutiny.

iamnothere 9y ago
Muninn_'s response was flagged to death, but it was a good faith response to the parent. (Sad to see this kind of behavior creeping into HN, where disagreement is flagged instead of being engaged with directly.) I am also sympathetic to the libertarian impulse (competition will fix it!), but as you pointed out, heavy regulation likely prevents that. I'm sure that there are SOME airline regulations we can safely roll back, but how many, and would this actually have a measurable impact on the competitive landscape? (Serious question!) I suspect that there is some regulatory capture going on, but it isn't likely to be visible except to industry insiders.
- Clubber 9y ago
  I believe competition can fix a lot of things, but to ensure competition, you have to block most, if not all mergers.

Cthulhu_ 9y ago

It's not about libertarianism, it's about a race to the bottom and apparently, there's more than enough people willing to sit in smaller seats if it saves them a few bucks.

manyxcxi 9y ago
I don’t think it’s a race to the bottom because people are okay with what we’re getting. We have no other options, at best, we get to choose our flavor of shit pie. I have been able to successfully avoid United for the better part of a decade and I fly Alaska and Southwest the most because I’ve had a satisfactory level of service as the norm with them, not because their prices are the cheapest- else I’d be flying Spirit airlines.
- mgkimsal 9y ago
  Correct. We don't sit in smaller seats to save 'a few bucks', we generally sit in smaller seats because 1. they're the only ones available for the dates/times we need 2. paying 40-150% more is prohibitive for many folks (and generally, is not a 'few bucks'). If we had 30 inch and 28 inch pitch seats, and you could choose, and people would pay, say $10 more for 30 inch, that might get us a bit closer to the original comment, but we're nowhere near that set of options.
  - hkmurakami 9y ago
    We do have "pay $50 more for 2 more inches of leg space", which in my experience a decent number of people are paying for on United Economy Plus. (I am happy to pay this price on longhaul)
- gozur88 9y ago
  >I don’t think it’s a race to the bottom because people are okay with what we’re getting. We have no other options, at best, we get to choose our flavor of shit pie. We have no other options because most people don't care as much about seat size as they care about money. The market is working, here, it's just not working in a way that you appreciate.