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That is, if you can't setup a CL system, you simply are not skilled enough as a programmer. Get over it. "Can't" is not at issue here - with enough effort, any

That is, if you can't setup a CL system, you simply are not skilled enough as a programmer. Get over it. "Can't" is not at issue here - with enough effort, anyone can do just about anything. The question is whether it's actually worth the effort. Given a choice between languages A and B, both of which have very enthusiastic userbases that are utterly convinced that their language is the One True Programming Language, but neither of which I've actually spent enough time with to know whether it will be worth the investment, which one will I spend the time to learn to work with? A smart programmer will pick whichever one gets up and running the quickest so that he can actually see what coding is like in that language, as opposed to configuring/installing/compiling sources/tracking down a supported version/etc. Why waste time doing all that stuff when if you just hop to the next language over you can have it all for free? Not to mention that problems setting up a dev environment are loosely predictive of future problems dealing with deployment, hiring extra hands, getting support when things go wrong, etc... Common Lisp is getting its clock cleaned by Clojure because the Clojure folks know that lowering barriers to adoption is a critically important thing when people are faced with such a glut of choice. But then again, I've never gotten the sense that the CL folks actually want more people using it, that community seems to be more than happy to remain an elite insider's-only club that is - obviously - smarter than everyone else. Which explains a lot of the hate for Clojure - it's bringing powerful tools to the unwashed masses, and it turns out they wield them quite effectively, shedding some serious doubt on the implicit assertion that you have to be really, really smart to use any sort of Lisp.

lelele 16y ago
> "Can't" is not at issue here - with enough effort, anyone can do just about anything. The question is whether it's actually worth the effort. Perhaps I should have said "with little effort", then. If you can't setup a system with just little effort, you are not skilled enough as a programmer. See, Ewjordan, I understand your frustration. I've had my share with setting up "newbie-hostile" systems, and you know what? As a consequence, I now understand better how things work, and I can setup whatever system faster. I have "graduated" from Ubuntu to Debian user, I now use Emacs as my only editor, and so on. Little improvements... Still learning. Oh, and I'm faster at tracking down and fix issues which I or my coworkers stumble upon. > A smart programmer will pick whichever one gets up and running the quickest so that he can actually see what coding is like in that language, as opposed to configuring/installing/compiling sources/tracking down a supported version/etc. Would we really call her a smart programmer? A street-wise programmer maybe. Being such a programmer could be your goal? That's fine. Have fun and make a lot of money. I think a really smart programmer will pick the language which will pay more dividends in the long run. Kind of choosing a Vim clone over a regular editor. > Why waste time doing all that stuff when if you just hop to the next language over you can have it all for free? Because not all language are created equal and you sometime have to choose between fighting the system in the beginning and fighting the language in the long run. Of course, you'll have an hear for practical considerations too. For instance, I'm currently learning Common Lisp over Scheme because even if I like Scheme better, CL has a wider user base and a proven track record. > But then again, I've never gotten the sense that the CL folks actually want more people using it I agree. Most of them don't seem interested. And I think I understand why. CLers are an old community and a lot of newbies jumped in, whined about things not working and left. Their hears are full. However, if you ask for help and ask for it smartly, you'll get answers, you'll - you won't believe this! - you'll get even code written for you. P.S.: Sorry, but I don't have time to review this post. Bye.

lelele 16y ago

> "Can't" is not at issue here - with enough effort, anyone can do just about anything. The question is whether it's actually worth the effort. Perhaps I should have said "with little effort", then. If you can't setup a system with just little effort, you are not skilled enough as a programmer. See, Ewjordan, I understand your frustration. I've had my share with setting up "newbie-hostile" systems, and you know what? As a consequence, I now understand better how things work, and I can setup whatever system faster. I have "graduated" from Ubuntu to Debian user, I now use Emacs as my only editor, and so on. Little improvements... Still learning. Oh, and I'm faster at tracking down and fix issues which I or my coworkers stumble upon. > A smart programmer will pick whichever one gets up and running the quickest so that he can actually see what coding is like in that language, as opposed to configuring/installing/compiling sources/tracking down a supported version/etc. Would we really call her a smart programmer? A street-wise programmer maybe. Being such a programmer could be your goal? That's fine. Have fun and make a lot of money. I think a really smart programmer will pick the language which will pay more dividends in the long run. Kind of choosing a Vim clone over a regular editor. > Why waste time doing all that stuff when if you just hop to the next language over you can have it all for free? Because not all language are created equal and you sometime have to choose between fighting the system in the beginning and fighting the language in the long run. Of course, you'll have an hear for practical considerations too. For instance, I'm currently learning Common Lisp over Scheme because even if I like Scheme better, CL has a wider user base and a proven track record. > But then again, I've never gotten the sense that the CL folks actually want more people using it I agree. Most of them don't seem interested. And I think I understand why. CLers are an old community and a lot of newbies jumped in, whined about things not working and left. Their hears are full. However, if you ask for help and ask for it smartly, you'll get answers, you'll - you won't believe this! - you'll get even code written for you. P.S.: Sorry, but I don't have time to review this post. Bye.