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Delivery services charge for value added services. We are talking about payment processing fees. For someone making minimum wage in the US, that $5 is on the o

Delivery services charge for value added services. We are talking about payment processing fees. For someone making minimum wage in the US, that $5 is on the order of 40 minutes of labor just to make a single payment. That's simply not viable.

tom_mellior 9y ago
True, but someone on the minimum wage is not the current target of businesses that accept Bitcoin. Their target market is more likely techies, probably reasonably well paid, and in particular with Bitcoin holdings that have appreciated over time. For these people, $5 may not be a big deal, and in particular it may be an even lesser deal since it's not priced in dollars but in Bitcoin. If my Bitcoins have appreciated tenfold since I bought them, that $5 fee suddenly corresponds to only $.50 that I put in in terms of dollars. Also, such people are interested in seeing Bitcoin succeed in the long term, and supporting the network with fees, even such high ones, is one way of contributing towards that. If you want, you can see Bitcoin's "value added services" as supporting real-world use, which supports a high price for the Bitcoins you bought for cheap. So... fitting squarely into the stereotype sketched above, I don't mind that much paying a few dollars for ordering a couple of pizzas. My problem (as mentioned in a cousin comment) is the annoying unpredictability of the fees.
- UncleMeat 9y ago
  Techie here. Paid well. If I have the choice to pay $15 for a pizza with a credit card and $20 for a pizza with BTC I will choose the credit card every time.
  - tom_mellior 9y ago
    Good for you. If I have the choice to pay $15 for a pizza with a credit card and $0 for a pizza with BTC I bought a long time ago at 1/500th of their current value, I'll factor in several things.
    - davrosthedalek 9y ago
      Reverse sunken cost fallacy? It doesn't matter what you paid for the BTC, it only matters what they are worth the moment you buy the pizza.
      - tom_mellior 9y ago
        Not sure what you're saying. I should never ever spend the Bitcoins I got for free because <insert fancy economics term here>? Under what circumstances would you allow me to spend Bitcoin rather than dollars?
        davrosthedalek 9y ago
        Not at all what I said. You can spend them any time. But if you spend them, you have to realize that you lose the current value they have, not the value you got them for. So that Pizza costs you 5$ more with bitcoin.
        tom_mellior 9y ago
        > So that Pizza costs you 5$ more with bitcoin. In a certain sense, yes, sure. What I'm saying is that, due to appreciation of my Bitcoins, those $5, as well as the actual price of the pizza, were essentially a gift to me from the Bitcoin community. I don't mind spending free food tokens that were gifted to me. Even if spending the free food tokens costs me fees (expressed in free food tokens), and I might possibly trade those free food tokens for a slightly higher amount in dollars (but incurring other fees). Especially since, if everyone stopped using their free food tokens, everyone's free food tokens would stop being usable.
        davrosthedalek 9y ago
        I would certainly maximize my pizza buying power by minimizing the transaction fee costs. I.e. convert a larger fraction to USD and incur the overhead only once. If you convert the value of 4 pizzas, you get a 5th for "free". But maybe I just like pizza more ;)
  - wolco 9y ago
    It is not that simple. Bitcoin fees are 2 dollars usually and merchant fees are 4%+ on credit cards on a 50 order is about 2 dollars. As a techie I might consider using bitcoin even if the confirmation time is high.
- taysic 9y ago
  But if Bitcoin is competing with another crypto such as Bitcoin Cash when buying the pizza... why not just buy it for next to no fee with Bitcoin Cash? Doesn't matter who the target is - its a no brainer. People don't want to spend extra money.
  - tom_mellior 9y ago
    > But if Bitcoin is competing with another crypto such as Bitcoin Cash when buying the pizza... Is it? Where do I have the choice to pay with Bitcoin Cash? > People don't want to spend extra money. So they shouldn't use Bitcoin Cash, which at current exchange rates buys them fewer pizzas per unit than Bitcoin does.

tom_mellior 9y ago

True, but someone on the minimum wage is not the current target of businesses that accept Bitcoin. Their target market is more likely techies, probably reasonably well paid, and in particular with Bitcoin holdings that have appreciated over time. For these people, $5 may not be a big deal, and in particular it may be an even lesser deal since it's not priced in dollars but in Bitcoin. If my Bitcoins have appreciated tenfold since I bought them, that $5 fee suddenly corresponds to only $.50 that I put in in terms of dollars. Also, such people are interested in seeing Bitcoin succeed in the long term, and supporting the network with fees, even such high ones, is one way of contributing towards that. If you want, you can see Bitcoin's "value added services" as supporting real-world use, which supports a high price for the Bitcoins you bought for cheap. So... fitting squarely into the stereotype sketched above, I don't mind that much paying a few dollars for ordering a couple of pizzas. My problem (as mentioned in a cousin comment) is the annoying unpredictability of the fees.

UncleMeat 9y ago
Techie here. Paid well. If I have the choice to pay $15 for a pizza with a credit card and $20 for a pizza with BTC I will choose the credit card every time.
- tom_mellior 9y ago
  Good for you. If I have the choice to pay $15 for a pizza with a credit card and $0 for a pizza with BTC I bought a long time ago at 1/500th of their current value, I'll factor in several things.
  - davrosthedalek 9y ago
    Reverse sunken cost fallacy? It doesn't matter what you paid for the BTC, it only matters what they are worth the moment you buy the pizza.
    - tom_mellior 9y ago
      Not sure what you're saying. I should never ever spend the Bitcoins I got for free because <insert fancy economics term here>? Under what circumstances would you allow me to spend Bitcoin rather than dollars?
      - davrosthedalek 9y ago
        Not at all what I said. You can spend them any time. But if you spend them, you have to realize that you lose the current value they have, not the value you got them for. So that Pizza costs you 5$ more with bitcoin.
        tom_mellior 9y ago
        > So that Pizza costs you 5$ more with bitcoin. In a certain sense, yes, sure. What I'm saying is that, due to appreciation of my Bitcoins, those $5, as well as the actual price of the pizza, were essentially a gift to me from the Bitcoin community. I don't mind spending free food tokens that were gifted to me. Even if spending the free food tokens costs me fees (expressed in free food tokens), and I might possibly trade those free food tokens for a slightly higher amount in dollars (but incurring other fees). Especially since, if everyone stopped using their free food tokens, everyone's free food tokens would stop being usable.
        davrosthedalek 9y ago
        I would certainly maximize my pizza buying power by minimizing the transaction fee costs. I.e. convert a larger fraction to USD and incur the overhead only once. If you convert the value of 4 pizzas, you get a 5th for "free". But maybe I just like pizza more ;)
- wolco 9y ago
  It is not that simple. Bitcoin fees are 2 dollars usually and merchant fees are 4%+ on credit cards on a 50 order is about 2 dollars. As a techie I might consider using bitcoin even if the confirmation time is high.
taysic 9y ago
But if Bitcoin is competing with another crypto such as Bitcoin Cash when buying the pizza... why not just buy it for next to no fee with Bitcoin Cash? Doesn't matter who the target is - its a no brainer. People don't want to spend extra money.
- tom_mellior 9y ago
  > But if Bitcoin is competing with another crypto such as Bitcoin Cash when buying the pizza... Is it? Where do I have the choice to pay with Bitcoin Cash? > People don't want to spend extra money. So they shouldn't use Bitcoin Cash, which at current exchange rates buys them fewer pizzas per unit than Bitcoin does.