3 ms·

Programming and Painting

61 points by fagnerbrack 9y ago

fagnerbrack 9y ago
Old, but gold. Here's a response: http://www.idlewords.com/2005/04/dabblers_and_blowhards.htm http://www.idlewords.com/2005/04/dabblers_and_blowhards.htm
- enneff 9y ago
  Really this should be the submitted link.
  - fagnerbrack 9y ago
    Done: http://www.idlewords.com/2005/04/dabblers_and_blowhards.htm http://www.idlewords.com/2005/04/dabblers_and_blowhards.htm
- kemiller2002 9y ago
  I have to admit, I'm rather disappointed with his response. I don't know a whole lot about the techniques of painting, and the way he described how Graham was incorrect about his statements was the start of something that could have been an amazing essay. He then had to make blanket statements about both painters and programmers, that are both way over generalized, and sexist. It's too bad, because he seems to be well versed in both painting and programming.
  - theoh 9y ago
    Can't comment on the respondent's actual attitude to women. As far as painters vs hackers goes, this is a topic which really lends itself to generalisations. They are fundamentally different kinds of person. Here's another attempted refutation of PG, just off the cuff: Painters (artists in general) need charisma to succeed. It's rare for them to become deeply involved in complex bodies of knowledge -- this doesn't pay off because the audience for art resembles the general public: it's not specialized. Among artists, painters in particular think visually and spatially, but the most technical ideas they are involved with are usually to do with the practical chemistry of artists' materials. Hackers are generally all about gaining knowledge of complex systems. They like to improvise and work in a self reliant way -- so, like painters, they are individualists. Do hackers pursue charisma? In a way, yes. The Unix hacker stereotype is a charismatic in a crude way (elitist, beard, sandals). But hackers are charismatic members only within a culture of technicians, and relative to that culture. Technicians are stereotypically not charismatic, or, at least, any charisma that they have is irrelevant to their effectiveness as technicians. This is essentially the cultural definition of a technician: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TechnicianVersusPerformer http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TechnicianVersusP... Charismatics, with their Reality Distortion Fields, are sometimes mistrusted in the technical domain. Part of this has to do with the typically narcissistic or otherwise non-normative personality of charismatic individuals. That same pattern is absolutely expected and tolerated in the arts, painting especially. So, the overlap between hackers and painters is quite minimal. The most painter-like hackers are the ones with the worrying large egos. The most hacker-like painters don't succeed as big name artists and end up teaching and pottering around with art materials.
    - contingencies 9y ago
      Those who consider unix hackers crude are doomed to reinvent them, poorly.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
rurban 9y ago
(2003) please
rock8y 9y ago
I just picked up Hackers and Painters by PG at local library. Hoping its a good read !
flute 9y ago
I like the architect/engineer analogy, to explain the dichotomy. I use it all the time, when my friends or relatives ask me to fix their computer. I tell them it's like calling an architect when your bathroom pipes get clogged.
- enneff 9y ago
  Except as a programmer you can probably fix their problems (you just don’t want to). An architect does not have the skills to fix plumbing.
  - bigger_cheese 9y ago
    It's a poor metaphor. I'm an engineer and I still call a plumber. What I enjoy about Engineering is that you have a set of constraints and you have the challenge of working within those constraints to solve a problem in a feasible manner. All most everything can be boiled down to an optimization problem, make this reactor use less fuel, make this engine deliver more power, make this component lighter etc. To create my own (bad) metaphor engineering is about coloring between the lines in the most efficient way possible. Science is what draws the lines and engineering is what fills them in.
useranme 9y ago
Does anyone know what the broken link in the essay used to link to? http://www.paulgraham.com/piraha.html http://www.paulgraham.com/piraha.html
- brandonhsiao 9y ago
  https://web.archive.org/web/20060211013646/http://www.paulgraham.com/piraha.html https://web.archive.org/web/20060211013646/http://www.paulgr...
muzani 9y ago
I'm quite intrigued that this essay pops up every few years. It seems to resonate deeply with certain people for some reason, like they've been searching for something and this essay unlocks it.
- ihale 9y ago
  I don't know about you, but it helps put my overly large ego in check. I especially like the read of Technician vs Performer. It truly unlocked something: it helps me rekindle the passion I had when I first started.

61 points by fagnerbrack 9y ago

Old, but gold. Here's a response: http://www.idlewords.com/2005/04/dabblers_and_blowhards.htm http://www.idlewords.com/2005/04/dabblers_and_blowhards.htm

enneff 9y ago
Really this should be the submitted link.
- fagnerbrack 9y ago
  Done: http://www.idlewords.com/2005/04/dabblers_and_blowhards.htm http://www.idlewords.com/2005/04/dabblers_and_blowhards.htm
kemiller2002 9y ago
I have to admit, I'm rather disappointed with his response. I don't know a whole lot about the techniques of painting, and the way he described how Graham was incorrect about his statements was the start of something that could have been an amazing essay. He then had to make blanket statements about both painters and programmers, that are both way over generalized, and sexist. It's too bad, because he seems to be well versed in both painting and programming.
- theoh 9y ago
  Can't comment on the respondent's actual attitude to women. As far as painters vs hackers goes, this is a topic which really lends itself to generalisations. They are fundamentally different kinds of person. Here's another attempted refutation of PG, just off the cuff: Painters (artists in general) need charisma to succeed. It's rare for them to become deeply involved in complex bodies of knowledge -- this doesn't pay off because the audience for art resembles the general public: it's not specialized. Among artists, painters in particular think visually and spatially, but the most technical ideas they are involved with are usually to do with the practical chemistry of artists' materials. Hackers are generally all about gaining knowledge of complex systems. They like to improvise and work in a self reliant way -- so, like painters, they are individualists. Do hackers pursue charisma? In a way, yes. The Unix hacker stereotype is a charismatic in a crude way (elitist, beard, sandals). But hackers are charismatic members only within a culture of technicians, and relative to that culture. Technicians are stereotypically not charismatic, or, at least, any charisma that they have is irrelevant to their effectiveness as technicians. This is essentially the cultural definition of a technician: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TechnicianVersusPerformer http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TechnicianVersusP... Charismatics, with their Reality Distortion Fields, are sometimes mistrusted in the technical domain. Part of this has to do with the typically narcissistic or otherwise non-normative personality of charismatic individuals. That same pattern is absolutely expected and tolerated in the arts, painting especially. So, the overlap between hackers and painters is quite minimal. The most painter-like hackers are the ones with the worrying large egos. The most hacker-like painters don't succeed as big name artists and end up teaching and pottering around with art materials.
  - contingencies 9y ago
    Those who consider unix hackers crude are doomed to reinvent them, poorly.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

rurban 9y ago

(2003) please

rock8y 9y ago

I just picked up Hackers and Painters by PG at local library. Hoping its a good read !

flute 9y ago

I like the architect/engineer analogy, to explain the dichotomy. I use it all the time, when my friends or relatives ask me to fix their computer. I tell them it's like calling an architect when your bathroom pipes get clogged.

enneff 9y ago
Except as a programmer you can probably fix their problems (you just don’t want to). An architect does not have the skills to fix plumbing.
- bigger_cheese 9y ago
  It's a poor metaphor. I'm an engineer and I still call a plumber. What I enjoy about Engineering is that you have a set of constraints and you have the challenge of working within those constraints to solve a problem in a feasible manner. All most everything can be boiled down to an optimization problem, make this reactor use less fuel, make this engine deliver more power, make this component lighter etc. To create my own (bad) metaphor engineering is about coloring between the lines in the most efficient way possible. Science is what draws the lines and engineering is what fills them in.

useranme 9y ago

Does anyone know what the broken link in the essay used to link to? http://www.paulgraham.com/piraha.html http://www.paulgraham.com/piraha.html

brandonhsiao 9y ago
https://web.archive.org/web/20060211013646/http://www.paulgraham.com/piraha.html https://web.archive.org/web/20060211013646/http://www.paulgr...

muzani 9y ago

I'm quite intrigued that this essay pops up every few years. It seems to resonate deeply with certain people for some reason, like they've been searching for something and this essay unlocks it.

ihale 9y ago
I don't know about you, but it helps put my overly large ego in check. I especially like the read of Technician vs Performer. It truly unlocked something: it helps me rekindle the passion I had when I first started.