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Slightly off topic: I've recently gotten to the point where I feel comfortable and productive in Vim. I know emacs is worth the effort to learn if you're repl

Slightly off topic: I've recently gotten to the point where I feel comfortable and productive in Vim. I know emacs is worth the effort to learn if you're replacing most editors out there. But does anyone have any opinions on whether it's worth the effort if the editor you'd be replacing is Vim?

jcsalterego 16y ago
As an Emacs user, my answer is no. Choose your path and become proficient in it. Unless you have ample time, you may run the risk of becoming a Jack of All Trades, Master of None.
melling 16y ago
You can be up and running in Emacs in a few minutes, if you grab AquaEmacs. It uses the Mac keybindings. Cmd-w, Cmd-s,Cmd-o, Cmd-c,Cmd-x,Cmd-v, etc. Just like any Mac program, navigate the menus to see what features and keybindings are available, when you get the urge. http://aquamacs.org/ http://aquamacs.org/ I imagine on Windows you can find one with equivalent key-bindings. As you get the urge to learn more, start reading blogs, etc. Here's a good place to start: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/60367/the-single-most-useful-emacs-feature http://stackoverflow.com/questions/60367/the-single-most-use...
jjames 16y ago
It really depends on what type of vim user you are. I used vi/m for 10 years before starting with emacs. Emacs works better for me. I know people for whom vim works better for them. It would be a shame not to find out for yourself.
swah 16y ago
Vim modal keys will always be more effective (and less painfull) to just edit raw text. Emacs will always be more extensive because elisp, with all its problems, does great there. I also prefer how Emacs handle multiple buffers too (even with Vim's project plugins). That said, I'm trying to use Textmate now. I think Emacs is what fucked up my left wrist.
- carterschonwald 16y ago
  textmate is great. If you haven't installed them yet, check out Ackmate for super awesome fuzzy search, project+ for a decent project drawer & dvcs state visualizer, and the getbundles bundle that lets you get up to date versions of bundles via github this blog post has a nice set of links to the tools in question: http://al3x.net/2008/12/03/how-i-use-textmate.html http://al3x.net/2008/12/03/how-i-use-textmate.html
  - swah 16y ago
    Yep, got those installed. I wish the project drawer would have the same color settings that the main window. Also, folding is very nice on Textmate.
Xurinos 16y ago
As a regular vim user who explored the emacs world for a while, I have somewhat mixed advice. emacs is worth learning. It highlights certain features, almost all of which you can pretty much get in vim -- it is just a different focus. One feature you do NOT have in vim is the ability to smoothly run a subprocess within the editor. That is why vimmers like to call emacs an OS; however, despite the ridicule, there really is something different about the SLIME experience that you ought to feel. There has been a lot of work on emacs to make it integrate in neat graphical ways. However, if you are fairly competent in vim, emacs is not worth using regularly for editing anything that has to do with text. The biggest issue is that to make emacs usable, you have to remap just about everything. It is almost as if its designers did everything in their power to stop people from editing text. For example (and there are many), vim folks make their lives quickly easier by using (book)marks and macros; compare the key combos for these in vim to the ones in emacs, and you will see one reason why emacs editing is, by default, slower. I avoid remapping keys because I actually work with other people sometimes within their environment, and it helps if the keys do the same thing. This makes for an unfortunate need for me to NOT get used to dvorak. :( There are other nitpicks, such as the inability to edit/view large files (before some naysayer shows up again to ask what large files we might edit: genome files and log files come to mind). Also, if you are told to try viper mode (and then told subsequently to use vimpulse.el with it -- definitely do this if you are using viper), these are good suggestions to get a fraction of vim's functionality along with some minor but annoying differences. Again, I point you towards macros. But also note that as soon as, for any reason, you open another buffer (for help, for an error, for giggles), you are in emacs keys world again and not in viper, so you will not be able to do your beloved Ctrl-W Ctrl-W immediately. If you are going to try emacs, just use the emacs bindings and forget about viper/vimpulse. One advantage suggested by emacs folks is the configurability of the editor with elisp. It is true that it is very configurable. You will find, however, that some of the difference is marketing and FUD; vimscript is a rather powerful little language worth learning in its own right. Most people do not realize that vimscript has OOP. And elisp does not teach you Lisp that you can use outside emacs... just Lispy concepts. All that said, I am not such a hardcore vimmer that I have a "set -i vi" configuration in bash. Learning emacs helped me learn how to do edits faster on the commandline. With dual experience in these editors, I sometimes use the wrong keys (try to move forward a word with Alt-F). Fortunately, in vim, undo is just a "u" away. Try it out. Let me know if you come away with the same experience or find ways to make it reasonably tolerable.
pavelludiq 16y ago
Emacs is not just a text editor, its more like a text editing platform or framework, or something like that. Emacs is literally the lisp of the text editor world, if you have the time and patience you should learn it even if you won't use it much, for the so called enlightenment it will offer you.
lelele 16y ago
Emacs is not an editor, it's an Emacs Lisp interpreter, so you can't really compare it to Vim. If you just need an editor which is configurable no more than deemed necessary, Vim is fine. If you need more than that, Emacs is your piece of cake. Emacs allows you to grow your own environment, which does things exactly as you wish. For instance, I've read that in Vim you can't customize where a sentence starts or ends for movement commands. Of course, in Emacs you could do that. Emacs' advantages are those shared by all Lisp environments. Another - already mentioned - killer feature of Emacs is the ability of Emacs Lisp to talk to external processes. This quote by Larry Clapp about him abandoning the development of a SLIME-like environment for Vim sums up the issues: "The more I worked on slim-vim, and the more I looked at Vim internals, the more I didn't like it, and the more I felt like I was just reinventing Emacs."(http://www.lispniks.com/pipermail/slim-vim/2007-May/000555.html http://www.lispniks.com/pipermail/slim-vim/2007-May/000555.h...)
Keyframe 16y ago
I used Vim exclusively in the past, and as an exercise in curiosity and experimentation with Lisp' I dabbled with Emacs. Somehow, during the process of learning emacs, I gradually abandoned Vim and am using Emacs almost exclusively now (throw in odd IDE like VS and Eclipse here and there). I hadn't even realized I switched Vim for Emacs, it just happened. I can't say I am more productive or anything with it. Probably the thing that took me away into it is that real process of learning Emacs is not actually learning any given set of commands (well, that happens too, of course), but it's more about starting to customize your own Emacs. During that customization process, Emacs grew into something I'd use if I were to build one myself - and, to an extent, I built one myself by customizing it. So, it's like a bio-suit, it's an amorphous mass that grows around to fit you almost perfectly as you tap into it's powers.

jcsalterego 16y ago

As an Emacs user, my answer is no. Choose your path and become proficient in it. Unless you have ample time, you may run the risk of becoming a Jack of All Trades, Master of None.

melling 16y ago

You can be up and running in Emacs in a few minutes, if you grab AquaEmacs. It uses the Mac keybindings. Cmd-w, Cmd-s,Cmd-o, Cmd-c,Cmd-x,Cmd-v, etc. Just like any Mac program, navigate the menus to see what features and keybindings are available, when you get the urge. http://aquamacs.org/ http://aquamacs.org/ I imagine on Windows you can find one with equivalent key-bindings. As you get the urge to learn more, start reading blogs, etc. Here's a good place to start: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/60367/the-single-most-useful-emacs-feature http://stackoverflow.com/questions/60367/the-single-most-use...

jjames 16y ago

It really depends on what type of vim user you are. I used vi/m for 10 years before starting with emacs. Emacs works better for me. I know people for whom vim works better for them. It would be a shame not to find out for yourself.

swah 16y ago

Vim modal keys will always be more effective (and less painfull) to just edit raw text. Emacs will always be more extensive because elisp, with all its problems, does great there. I also prefer how Emacs handle multiple buffers too (even with Vim's project plugins). That said, I'm trying to use Textmate now. I think Emacs is what fucked up my left wrist.

carterschonwald 16y ago
textmate is great. If you haven't installed them yet, check out Ackmate for super awesome fuzzy search, project+ for a decent project drawer & dvcs state visualizer, and the getbundles bundle that lets you get up to date versions of bundles via github this blog post has a nice set of links to the tools in question: http://al3x.net/2008/12/03/how-i-use-textmate.html http://al3x.net/2008/12/03/how-i-use-textmate.html
- swah 16y ago
  Yep, got those installed. I wish the project drawer would have the same color settings that the main window. Also, folding is very nice on Textmate.

Xurinos 16y ago

As a regular vim user who explored the emacs world for a while, I have somewhat mixed advice. emacs is worth learning. It highlights certain features, almost all of which you can pretty much get in vim -- it is just a different focus. One feature you do NOT have in vim is the ability to smoothly run a subprocess within the editor. That is why vimmers like to call emacs an OS; however, despite the ridicule, there really is something different about the SLIME experience that you ought to feel. There has been a lot of work on emacs to make it integrate in neat graphical ways. However, if you are fairly competent in vim, emacs is not worth using regularly for editing anything that has to do with text. The biggest issue is that to make emacs usable, you have to remap just about everything. It is almost as if its designers did everything in their power to stop people from editing text. For example (and there are many), vim folks make their lives quickly easier by using (book)marks and macros; compare the key combos for these in vim to the ones in emacs, and you will see one reason why emacs editing is, by default, slower. I avoid remapping keys because I actually work with other people sometimes within their environment, and it helps if the keys do the same thing. This makes for an unfortunate need for me to NOT get used to dvorak. :( There are other nitpicks, such as the inability to edit/view large files (before some naysayer shows up again to ask what large files we might edit: genome files and log files come to mind). Also, if you are told to try viper mode (and then told subsequently to use vimpulse.el with it -- definitely do this if you are using viper), these are good suggestions to get a fraction of vim's functionality along with some minor but annoying differences. Again, I point you towards macros. But also note that as soon as, for any reason, you open another buffer (for help, for an error, for giggles), you are in emacs keys world again and not in viper, so you will not be able to do your beloved Ctrl-W Ctrl-W immediately. If you are going to try emacs, just use the emacs bindings and forget about viper/vimpulse. One advantage suggested by emacs folks is the configurability of the editor with elisp. It is true that it is very configurable. You will find, however, that some of the difference is marketing and FUD; vimscript is a rather powerful little language worth learning in its own right. Most people do not realize that vimscript has OOP. And elisp does not teach you Lisp that you can use outside emacs... just Lispy concepts. All that said, I am not such a hardcore vimmer that I have a "set -i vi" configuration in bash. Learning emacs helped me learn how to do edits faster on the commandline. With dual experience in these editors, I sometimes use the wrong keys (try to move forward a word with Alt-F). Fortunately, in vim, undo is just a "u" away. Try it out. Let me know if you come away with the same experience or find ways to make it reasonably tolerable.

pavelludiq 16y ago

Emacs is not just a text editor, its more like a text editing platform or framework, or something like that. Emacs is literally the lisp of the text editor world, if you have the time and patience you should learn it even if you won't use it much, for the so called enlightenment it will offer you.

lelele 16y ago

Emacs is not an editor, it's an Emacs Lisp interpreter, so you can't really compare it to Vim. If you just need an editor which is configurable no more than deemed necessary, Vim is fine. If you need more than that, Emacs is your piece of cake. Emacs allows you to grow your own environment, which does things exactly as you wish. For instance, I've read that in Vim you can't customize where a sentence starts or ends for movement commands. Of course, in Emacs you could do that. Emacs' advantages are those shared by all Lisp environments. Another - already mentioned - killer feature of Emacs is the ability of Emacs Lisp to talk to external processes. This quote by Larry Clapp about him abandoning the development of a SLIME-like environment for Vim sums up the issues: "The more I worked on slim-vim, and the more I looked at Vim internals, the more I didn't like it, and the more I felt like I was just reinventing Emacs."(http://www.lispniks.com/pipermail/slim-vim/2007-May/000555.html http://www.lispniks.com/pipermail/slim-vim/2007-May/000555.h...)

Keyframe 16y ago

I used Vim exclusively in the past, and as an exercise in curiosity and experimentation with Lisp' I dabbled with Emacs. Somehow, during the process of learning emacs, I gradually abandoned Vim and am using Emacs almost exclusively now (throw in odd IDE like VS and Eclipse here and there). I hadn't even realized I switched Vim for Emacs, it just happened. I can't say I am more productive or anything with it. Probably the thing that took me away into it is that real process of learning Emacs is not actually learning any given set of commands (well, that happens too, of course), but it's more about starting to customize your own Emacs. During that customization process, Emacs grew into something I'd use if I were to build one myself - and, to an extent, I built one myself by customizing it. So, it's like a bio-suit, it's an amorphous mass that grows around to fit you almost perfectly as you tap into it's powers.