3 ms·

> I have always had trouble understanding why people link verbal thinking and consciousness I came across the same conundrum when I was studying psychology. I

by rusk 9y ago

> I have always had trouble understanding why people link verbal thinking and consciousness I came across the same conundrum when I was studying psychology. It all came down to the medium becoming the message. Language is the prime means through which we convey experience. Of course there are other means visual, spacial but when you're "studying consciousness" you're typically reading books. Serious treatise in the area are delivered in the form of books. We come to think of thought as being predominantly verbal because that's the predominant means through which we acquire an "objective" appreciation for what consciousness "is". Even to use a word "consciousness" puts that set of concepts in a delineated box. I could go on ... but I risk becoming stream of consciousness ...

nabla9 9y ago
I had interesting discussion about logical thinking once. My fried claimed that it's impossible to think logically (btw. etymology of word logic is "word" or "what is spoken") without verbally running the the words and sentences in your head. Then I explained that I have always used logic visuospatially. "and" is choice between places or fork in the road, "or" is combining two objects in the same place and so on. Content of our consciousness seems to be based on sensory input and sensor fusion. Thinking is running simulated sequences and scenarios in our head. Different people use different sensory content more than others. I wouldn't be surprised if some people use feelings or motor imaginary more than others. We have visuospatial ability, audioverbal perception and motor imagery/proprioception. Interoceptive senses seem to relate feelings somehow. If you really drill and analyze what if feels to love, hate or fear. The feeling is related to our internal senses.
- alsetmusic 9y ago
  > My fried claimed that it's impossible to think logically (btw. etymology of word logic is "word" or "what is spoken") without verbally running the the words and sentences in your head. In this case, would numbers represent “words” in the language of mathematics? When I was younger and sharper, I used to see products of numbers physically manifest in my mind. This is a form of logic, but it also required an “alphabet” of sorts. As an aside, I once saw an interview with a mathematical genius of sorts who stated that he associated numbers with colors. He saw the product of two numbers as a third color. Again, logic without traditional language.
  - hyperpallium 9y ago
    Mathematical proof did not originate with number, but geometry.
- BurningFrog 9y ago
  Different people have different brains. Your friend was probably right about his/her brain, and you're right about yours.
- rusk 9y ago
  When you see the mathematical phrase "1 + 1" (a trite example, but please substitute something more complex if you like), your reasoning to get the answer is symbolic, but not verbal. That said, I personally have to say the math to myself to "upload" it into my brain, but somebody with more expertise in maths would just have to "see" it.
gt_ 9y ago
So, we use words to abstract our thought, but wouldn’t it seem there to be lower levels of abstraction as well? I believe this is the point Temple Grandin is working toward. I think I agree that words tend to puts thoughts or acknowledgements in a box, but maybe the box is mutable.
- rusk 9y ago
  Yea but different boxes are mutable for different people in different ways. When communicating by way of the written word language is the common abstraction. To be synthesised as per the receivers own “internal boxes” but in the macro structure imposed by language
  - gt_ 9y ago
    This is synthesizing well with me.
lukasb 9y ago
Not just psychology, look up the linguistic turn in philosophy in the 20th century. There is support for a weak version of Sapir-Whorf, but in general any time someone says "the limits of your language determine the limits of your thought" I just s/language/culture.

by rusk 9y ago

nabla9 9y ago

I had interesting discussion about logical thinking once. My fried claimed that it's impossible to think logically (btw. etymology of word logic is "word" or "what is spoken") without verbally running the the words and sentences in your head. Then I explained that I have always used logic visuospatially. "and" is choice between places or fork in the road, "or" is combining two objects in the same place and so on. Content of our consciousness seems to be based on sensory input and sensor fusion. Thinking is running simulated sequences and scenarios in our head. Different people use different sensory content more than others. I wouldn't be surprised if some people use feelings or motor imaginary more than others. We have visuospatial ability, audioverbal perception and motor imagery/proprioception. Interoceptive senses seem to relate feelings somehow. If you really drill and analyze what if feels to love, hate or fear. The feeling is related to our internal senses.

alsetmusic 9y ago
> My fried claimed that it's impossible to think logically (btw. etymology of word logic is "word" or "what is spoken") without verbally running the the words and sentences in your head. In this case, would numbers represent “words” in the language of mathematics? When I was younger and sharper, I used to see products of numbers physically manifest in my mind. This is a form of logic, but it also required an “alphabet” of sorts. As an aside, I once saw an interview with a mathematical genius of sorts who stated that he associated numbers with colors. He saw the product of two numbers as a third color. Again, logic without traditional language.
- hyperpallium 9y ago
  Mathematical proof did not originate with number, but geometry.
BurningFrog 9y ago
Different people have different brains. Your friend was probably right about his/her brain, and you're right about yours.
rusk 9y ago
When you see the mathematical phrase "1 + 1" (a trite example, but please substitute something more complex if you like), your reasoning to get the answer is symbolic, but not verbal. That said, I personally have to say the math to myself to "upload" it into my brain, but somebody with more expertise in maths would just have to "see" it.

gt_ 9y ago

So, we use words to abstract our thought, but wouldn’t it seem there to be lower levels of abstraction as well? I believe this is the point Temple Grandin is working toward. I think I agree that words tend to puts thoughts or acknowledgements in a box, but maybe the box is mutable.

rusk 9y ago
Yea but different boxes are mutable for different people in different ways. When communicating by way of the written word language is the common abstraction. To be synthesised as per the receivers own “internal boxes” but in the macro structure imposed by language
- gt_ 9y ago
  This is synthesizing well with me.

lukasb 9y ago

Not just psychology, look up the linguistic turn in philosophy in the 20th century. There is support for a weak version of Sapir-Whorf, but in general any time someone says "the limits of your language determine the limits of your thought" I just s/language/culture.