8 ms·

Isn't the H1-B program ripe with abuse? I've read dozens if not hundreds of comments here and reports from all over where teams were laid off in favor of H1-B c

Isn't the H1-B program ripe with abuse? I've read dozens if not hundreds of comments here and reports from all over where teams were laid off in favor of H1-B counterparts. If that's really the case, challenging the applications is the first deterrent to this sort of behavior. I doubt anything will eliminate 100% of the abuse but if we can cut it significantly, I'd call that a win.

wheelerwj 9y ago
ive heard of this rumor but ive never actually seen it in action. having hired h1bs before, i’m skeptical that anyone but a massive corporation could do something like this. the expenses, rules, process would prohibit most teams from accomplishing and maintaining this. and a corporation large enough to pull it off likely wouldn’t derive enough benefit to actually make it worth it given the risk of exposure from either internal or external whistle blowers. i have no doubt there’s fraud in the immigration system, (america is pretty cool after all), i feel like the fraud problem takes shape in different forms than, “mass layoffs in favor of h1b labor.” honestly, i’m more worried about he use of
- chrisbennet 9y ago
  It’s not a “rumor”. Disney layed off over 100 IT staff and had them train their Indian replacements [1]. Southern California Edison layed off 400 and had them train their Indian replacements. [2] [1] https://www.computerworld.com/article/2915904/it-outsourcing/fury-rises-at-disney-over-use-of-foreign-workers.html https://www.computerworld.com/article/2915904/it-outsourcing... [2] https://www.computerworld.com/article/2879083/it-outsourcing/southern-california-edison-it-workers-beyond-furious-over-h-1b-replacements.html https://www.computerworld.com/article/2879083/it-outsourcing...
  - zeusk 9y ago
    The jobs aren't getting transferred to H1Bs, they're getting contracted out to TCS and Infosys who are known for abusing the program by "lending" out their employees as contractors. They're akin to the predatory hiring agencies that provide workers to Amazon's warehouses. Good for Amazon's bottom line and the agency, not so much for the employees or the community. imho, increasing base salary requirement and mandating that employees either work on-site only or are free to jump ship to any company (visa is not associated with the employer) would fix majority of the issues.
    - humanrebar 9y ago
      Isn't this a side effect of adding more regulations onto full-time workers? Seems like if the overhead for a full time employee keeps going up and the regulations keep getting more strict, we'll see more that risk and cost outsourced more and more to companies that specialize in circumventing things and keeping the extra expenses as low as possible. The intent behind these regulations, whether healthcare or immigration control, is really beside the point. I'm wondering if these things are really enforceable in the long run. On top of everything else, as has already been mentioned, the rules seem to provide competitive advantages to large companies (or at least those willing to outsource to them) over small ones. This probably decreases the level of innovation, dynamism, and entrepreneurship in the economy.
- tyingq 9y ago
  You could reasonably classify the H1Bs issued by companies like Tata, Infosys, and Wipro as abuse. They are quite often used to displace existing workers. That's not the purpose of the H1B program. They are, of course, clever about how they structure these deals, but do get exposed often enough. http://www.epi.org/blog/new-data-infosys-tata-abuse-h-1b-program/ http://www.epi.org/blog/new-data-infosys-tata-abuse-h-1b-pro...
  - makmanalp 9y ago
    The question is whether those being rejected are these ones or not, which I don't know if we have enough information to tell.
2_listerine_pls 9y ago
Companies should hire whomever they want.
- Techonomicon 9y ago
  there's a difference between hiring a team offshore, that stays offshore, and hiring h1b developers to move here. The first is global economy, the second can be detrimental to keeping jobs within america, especially when we actually do have many perfectly fine and able engineers losing their jobs simply because others are willing to work for half of their pay. The H1-B abuse the OP is talking about has nothing to do with hiring better people from other countries, I don't think many people argue that - the problem is just trying to replace perfectly fine engineering teams which live here with cheaper engineering teams. And we're not talking the difference between $150k developer who is from the US and a $130k one that is brought in from elsewhere, we're talking about being able to pay WAY under market, perhaps even half market rates - that's the issue.
cardine 9y ago
>If that's really the case, challenging the applications is the first deterrent to this sort of behavior. I doubt anything will eliminate 100% of the abuse but if we can cut it significantly, I'd call that a win. The problem is that is not really what is happening. USCIS is challenging nearly every single application with challenges that do not match the requirements for an H1B and then dragging those challenges with red tape. They are probably aware that in the end almost all of these challenges will be won by the applicants. So the (likely intentional) result of this is that many people who won the H1B lottery are now in an awkward situation where their previous work visa has expired but their H1B hasn't started yet because of all of these challenges. So many of those people cannot legally work since there is now a gap in work authorization and are being fired or relocated back to their home country, despite the fact that they would likely have gotten their H1B in the end.
- pkaye 9y ago
  This kind of explain a friend who is on H1B leaving their job preemptively for a new one. This person is really good but they can't take a risk because their current employer is not on solid footing.

wheelerwj 9y ago

ive heard of this rumor but ive never actually seen it in action. having hired h1bs before, i’m skeptical that anyone but a massive corporation could do something like this. the expenses, rules, process would prohibit most teams from accomplishing and maintaining this. and a corporation large enough to pull it off likely wouldn’t derive enough benefit to actually make it worth it given the risk of exposure from either internal or external whistle blowers. i have no doubt there’s fraud in the immigration system, (america is pretty cool after all), i feel like the fraud problem takes shape in different forms than, “mass layoffs in favor of h1b labor.” honestly, i’m more worried about he use of

chrisbennet 9y ago
It’s not a “rumor”. Disney layed off over 100 IT staff and had them train their Indian replacements [1]. Southern California Edison layed off 400 and had them train their Indian replacements. [2] [1] https://www.computerworld.com/article/2915904/it-outsourcing/fury-rises-at-disney-over-use-of-foreign-workers.html https://www.computerworld.com/article/2915904/it-outsourcing... [2] https://www.computerworld.com/article/2879083/it-outsourcing/southern-california-edison-it-workers-beyond-furious-over-h-1b-replacements.html https://www.computerworld.com/article/2879083/it-outsourcing...
- zeusk 9y ago
  The jobs aren't getting transferred to H1Bs, they're getting contracted out to TCS and Infosys who are known for abusing the program by "lending" out their employees as contractors. They're akin to the predatory hiring agencies that provide workers to Amazon's warehouses. Good for Amazon's bottom line and the agency, not so much for the employees or the community. imho, increasing base salary requirement and mandating that employees either work on-site only or are free to jump ship to any company (visa is not associated with the employer) would fix majority of the issues.
  - humanrebar 9y ago
    Isn't this a side effect of adding more regulations onto full-time workers? Seems like if the overhead for a full time employee keeps going up and the regulations keep getting more strict, we'll see more that risk and cost outsourced more and more to companies that specialize in circumventing things and keeping the extra expenses as low as possible. The intent behind these regulations, whether healthcare or immigration control, is really beside the point. I'm wondering if these things are really enforceable in the long run. On top of everything else, as has already been mentioned, the rules seem to provide competitive advantages to large companies (or at least those willing to outsource to them) over small ones. This probably decreases the level of innovation, dynamism, and entrepreneurship in the economy.
tyingq 9y ago
You could reasonably classify the H1Bs issued by companies like Tata, Infosys, and Wipro as abuse. They are quite often used to displace existing workers. That's not the purpose of the H1B program. They are, of course, clever about how they structure these deals, but do get exposed often enough. http://www.epi.org/blog/new-data-infosys-tata-abuse-h-1b-program/ http://www.epi.org/blog/new-data-infosys-tata-abuse-h-1b-pro...
- makmanalp 9y ago
  The question is whether those being rejected are these ones or not, which I don't know if we have enough information to tell.

2_listerine_pls 9y ago

Companies should hire whomever they want.

Techonomicon 9y ago
there's a difference between hiring a team offshore, that stays offshore, and hiring h1b developers to move here. The first is global economy, the second can be detrimental to keeping jobs within america, especially when we actually do have many perfectly fine and able engineers losing their jobs simply because others are willing to work for half of their pay. The H1-B abuse the OP is talking about has nothing to do with hiring better people from other countries, I don't think many people argue that - the problem is just trying to replace perfectly fine engineering teams which live here with cheaper engineering teams. And we're not talking the difference between $150k developer who is from the US and a $130k one that is brought in from elsewhere, we're talking about being able to pay WAY under market, perhaps even half market rates - that's the issue.

cardine 9y ago

>If that's really the case, challenging the applications is the first deterrent to this sort of behavior. I doubt anything will eliminate 100% of the abuse but if we can cut it significantly, I'd call that a win. The problem is that is not really what is happening. USCIS is challenging nearly every single application with challenges that do not match the requirements for an H1B and then dragging those challenges with red tape. They are probably aware that in the end almost all of these challenges will be won by the applicants. So the (likely intentional) result of this is that many people who won the H1B lottery are now in an awkward situation where their previous work visa has expired but their H1B hasn't started yet because of all of these challenges. So many of those people cannot legally work since there is now a gap in work authorization and are being fired or relocated back to their home country, despite the fact that they would likely have gotten their H1B in the end.

pkaye 9y ago
This kind of explain a friend who is on H1B leaving their job preemptively for a new one. This person is really good but they can't take a risk because their current employer is not on solid footing.