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Crucially, Jayne's definition of "consciousness" is basically introspection. If you replace the word "consciousness" with "introspection", all the controversy

Crucially, Jayne's definition of "consciousness" is basically introspection. If you replace the word "consciousness" with "introspection", all the controversy evaporates and the story becomes (only mildly) interesting. > Jaynes ... decides to read early texts, including The Iliad and The Odyssey, to look for signs of people who aren’t capable of introspection—people who are all sea, no rime. And he believes he sees that in The Iliad. He writes that the characters in The Iliad do not look inward, and they take no independent initiative. Suitcase words like "consciousness" are tricky to work with. https://alexvermeer.com/unpacking-suitcase-words/ https://alexvermeer.com/unpacking-suitcase-words/

adekok 9y ago
> Crucially, Jayne's definition of "consciousness" is basically introspection. With language as a key portion. See any discussion of deaf people who aren't taught language until late in life, such a Helen Keller. The stories consistently have them emotionally overwhelmed when the first learn language. They want to know the names of everything. And also, they consistently talk about "before" and "after". Before language, they were a collection of emotions, fears, desires, etc. After language, they existed for the first time. They could name things, including themselves. This looks a lot like the transition to self aware consciousness. Which means Jayne isn't entirely wrong.
- nyir 9y ago
  A quick search yielded something from a book about Keller - do you have some other good sources for what you mention?
uoaei 9y ago
I'm still astounded by all the different things people mean when they say "consciousness." I think a better term for the discussion surrounding Jaynes and his theory is "awareness"--understanding and conceptualizing reality via a semantic framework, rather than merely processing inputs and directing outputs. The ego (or the default mode network, in which I hypothesize the ego "resides") basically connects those disparate parts of the brain and makes the leap to turn the brain from a few interacting modules into an integrated whole, giving rise to the sense of the self as we understand it today. This must somehow activate our self-awareness by us understanding not only that we inhabit a body, but that the mind doing so can also be identified.

adekok 9y ago

> Crucially, Jayne's definition of "consciousness" is basically introspection. With language as a key portion. See any discussion of deaf people who aren't taught language until late in life, such a Helen Keller. The stories consistently have them emotionally overwhelmed when the first learn language. They want to know the names of everything. And also, they consistently talk about "before" and "after". Before language, they were a collection of emotions, fears, desires, etc. After language, they existed for the first time. They could name things, including themselves. This looks a lot like the transition to self aware consciousness. Which means Jayne isn't entirely wrong.

nyir 9y ago
A quick search yielded something from a book about Keller - do you have some other good sources for what you mention?

uoaei 9y ago

I'm still astounded by all the different things people mean when they say "consciousness." I think a better term for the discussion surrounding Jaynes and his theory is "awareness"--understanding and conceptualizing reality via a semantic framework, rather than merely processing inputs and directing outputs. The ego (or the default mode network, in which I hypothesize the ego "resides") basically connects those disparate parts of the brain and makes the leap to turn the brain from a few interacting modules into an integrated whole, giving rise to the sense of the self as we understand it today. This must somehow activate our self-awareness by us understanding not only that we inhabit a body, but that the mind doing so can also be identified.