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> a major version conveys no more information I understand where you're coming from: a complete project name change is something very different. I also think t

by grzm 9y ago

> a major version conveys no more information I understand where you're coming from: a complete project name change is something very different. I also think this is something that's commonly misunderstood. From the article: > conveys no more actionable information The key here is actionable. What will change in what you as someone who consumes this third-party code will have to do if you adopt a major version bump versus a new library? Unless the new version is API compatible with the old one, you're likely going to have to do some major work in incorporating the new version; if the API is backwards compatible, it's not really a major version bump. The further a different library is from the one you're currently using is of course going to require a different level of rework, but that's part of what a major version bump signifies. I see what you're getting at with respect to some arbitrary new library, but if the new major version (with a new name) is from the same maintainer, Rails2 vs Rails v2 isn't so different from what you're going to need to do in your code. As for which name you change, I think that's where the rubber meets the road. What's the name the code is referred to in your application? That's the one that really matters, and where a name change is warranted. If the language affords module namespacing, the new library is just a new require/import. Major versions aren't drop-in replacements. If the libraries are namespaced, you can conceivably use them side-by-side in the same codebase as you migrate. This is potentially very powerful. As a practical example, in one Java library I've been working on that has a long history, it's able to use various versions of JUnit in the same testing suite exactly because the different versions are namespaced. Another example at a different level is being able to install more than one version of, say, python or sqlite, on the same system. Some packages name the binaries with a suffix, e.g., python27 or python3, so you can include and have both of them on your path without conflict. When you install current versions of sqlite, the binary is explicitly sqlite3 so as to not be confused with older, incompatible versions.

mrighele 9y ago
> Unless the new version is API compatible with the old one, you're likely going to have to do some major work in incorporating the new version. A new major revision of a library means that there are some non-backward compatible changes, and in many cases this means a limited number of fixes have to be done. Also in general it is expected that one will want to upgrade, so probably those changes are documented. Also hopefully the two libraries will share the same main concepts so using the new version will not be terribly different from the old. Of course it is not always the case, see Angular, were two unrelated frameworks share the same name (I really think they should have changed the name).
- grzm 9y ago
  > "A new major revision of a library means that there are some* non-backward compatible changes"* I agree. As I mentioned in a comment to your sibling[0], I think there's a bit of a disconnect as to what people are thinking of renaming. With respect to what's changed, the major version number doesn't give you any additional information as to what has changed. You need to refer, as you mentioned, to the documentation, or the results of your own testing. That's what I'm getting at when I point out the operable word actionable. I completely agree that the two libraries, if understood to be the same project, should likely share the same core concepts: after all, that's likely what attracted people to the library in the first place, and that likely only a limited number of fixes have to be done. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15678226 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15678226
hyperpape 9y ago
It’s relatively actionable as well. When someone says they want to migrate from Rails 4 to 5, the default response is “we should really consider doing that at some point and evaluate how much work it will take.” When they say we want to migrate from Rails 4 to Django X, the default response is “you’re going to have to justify a total rewrite”. That’s even true for some brutal version changes: going from Python 2 to Python 3 is still typically less work than going to Go or Java or some other language. Angular might be the one exception I know of to this pattern.
- grzm 9y ago
  I agree that there are degrees of difference that can be conveyed. I think there's a bit of a misconception of what it can mean to rename a library, however, that's often (and understandably easily) missed in this particular discussion. There are at least three levels where the names matter: the project (e.g., Rails), the artifact (e.g., a particular gem), and the module(s) (e.g., what gets referenced by require). They're each important in their own way. I think renaming the Rails project instead of a major version bump is not what is typically the intent when talking about renaming. Artifacts are a way of referencing a collection of files, and often there's some way of embedding metadata about the artifact in the name of it, though that's accidental, and naming these artifacts is independent (or at least not necessarily dependent) of the collection it represents: the same file can be found in any number of artifact builds. I think the practical implication is that you're renaming what is being required and referenced in the code itself. So, you'd still have the same understanding that a migration from Rails2 to Rails5 would be bigger than one from Rails4 to Rails5, and that would be a whole different kettle of fish than moving to Django (or even Sinatra). I think we may be talking past each other as to the level where renaming (or really, new, additional naming) would take place.

by grzm 9y ago

mrighele 9y ago

> Unless the new version is API compatible with the old one, you're likely going to have to do some major work in incorporating the new version. A new major revision of a library means that there are some non-backward compatible changes, and in many cases this means a limited number of fixes have to be done. Also in general it is expected that one will want to upgrade, so probably those changes are documented. Also hopefully the two libraries will share the same main concepts so using the new version will not be terribly different from the old. Of course it is not always the case, see Angular, were two unrelated frameworks share the same name (I really think they should have changed the name).

grzm 9y ago
> "A new major revision of a library means that there are some* non-backward compatible changes"* I agree. As I mentioned in a comment to your sibling[0], I think there's a bit of a disconnect as to what people are thinking of renaming. With respect to what's changed, the major version number doesn't give you any additional information as to what has changed. You need to refer, as you mentioned, to the documentation, or the results of your own testing. That's what I'm getting at when I point out the operable word actionable. I completely agree that the two libraries, if understood to be the same project, should likely share the same core concepts: after all, that's likely what attracted people to the library in the first place, and that likely only a limited number of fixes have to be done. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15678226 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15678226

hyperpape 9y ago

It’s relatively actionable as well. When someone says they want to migrate from Rails 4 to 5, the default response is “we should really consider doing that at some point and evaluate how much work it will take.” When they say we want to migrate from Rails 4 to Django X, the default response is “you’re going to have to justify a total rewrite”. That’s even true for some brutal version changes: going from Python 2 to Python 3 is still typically less work than going to Go or Java or some other language. Angular might be the one exception I know of to this pattern.

grzm 9y ago
I agree that there are degrees of difference that can be conveyed. I think there's a bit of a misconception of what it can mean to rename a library, however, that's often (and understandably easily) missed in this particular discussion. There are at least three levels where the names matter: the project (e.g., Rails), the artifact (e.g., a particular gem), and the module(s) (e.g., what gets referenced by require). They're each important in their own way. I think renaming the Rails project instead of a major version bump is not what is typically the intent when talking about renaming. Artifacts are a way of referencing a collection of files, and often there's some way of embedding metadata about the artifact in the name of it, though that's accidental, and naming these artifacts is independent (or at least not necessarily dependent) of the collection it represents: the same file can be found in any number of artifact builds. I think the practical implication is that you're renaming what is being required and referenced in the code itself. So, you'd still have the same understanding that a migration from Rails2 to Rails5 would be bigger than one from Rails4 to Rails5, and that would be a whole different kettle of fish than moving to Django (or even Sinatra). I think we may be talking past each other as to the level where renaming (or really, new, additional naming) would take place.