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Normally I'd call BS on a Company calling unauthorized collection of data a 'minor' bug, but in this particular case, it seems likely that this is the case. I

Normally I'd call BS on a Company calling unauthorized collection of data a 'minor' bug, but in this particular case, it seems likely that this is the case. I say this because -- according to the company's official response[1] -- the recordings were only created on the Android version and not the iOS version of their app. They also state that the recording is only cached locally on the phone and not uploaded to their servers. Leads me to think that it's very likely their Android app programmer(s) wrote some test code to save the file, and forgot to delete it or conditionally hide it in their release version of the App. There's no excuse for the sloppy programmer(s) if this was the case, I'm just saying the 'bug' angle is a possibility, because the Company has also been very quick to fix it and release an updated version for the Andriod app. One more thing, I wouldn't call something like this a 'minor' bug. Likely their PR team threw that word in. > Source: Lovense's official account on Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/sex/comments/7bmi3i/psa_lovense_remote_control_vibrator_app_recording/dpm4050/ https://www.reddit.com/r/sex/comments/7bmi3i/psa_lovense_rem...

loceng 9y ago
In the technical sense it sounds like a minor bug in, in the other implications not so minor - perhaps another mistake on their part of not being more clear with language.
cantrip 9y ago
It's possible this was only done on Android specifically because the odds of this being picked up and the app rejected by Apple are close to 100% while the odds of that happening in Google Play are about 0%.
- fleitz 9y ago
  haha. yeah, no. Apple catches UI issues and obvious use of private APIs. You just need the slimmest of excuses to do what you want. Like if you want to track a user's location put a location feature ANYWHERE in the app. Also if the app is using the mic outside of the app, you'd see a big red bar at the top of your screen.
  - sillysaurus3 9y ago
    Does Apple hellban in cases where they discover someone was maliciously trying to call private APIs? How easy is it to get away with this long term?
    - fleitz 9y ago
      I know places that have been doing it for years. They just tell you to stop. It's basically an arms race of them trying to figure out how you're doing it and figuring out ways to prevent them from detecting it. The app has a few million users so not sure if Average Joe would just get hellbanned.
      - beefield 9y ago
        Apologies for my laziness, but what is meant by "private API" here and why Apple does not want them to be used?
        NegativeLatency 9y ago
        Often the private APIs are used to track users, because they allow getting identifying serial numbers from the phone. Apple markets privacy as one of the features for the iPhone.
        alsetmusic 9y ago
        > Apologies for my laziness, but what is meant by "private API" here and why Apple does not want them to be used? Private APIs are not meant for use by third-party developers. They are not publicly documented and are subject to change without warning.
        natch 9y ago
        They are functions (in the programming sense) that can be called by other code, but Apple reserves them for their own use. They don't necessarily have anything to do with privacy, though some of them do. The "private" refers to them not being publicly documented and not provided for developer use. Internal developers at Apple are allowed to use them, but only as appropriate. Consider a function (API) that allows one to wipe the phone. Apple doesn't want just anyone to be able to write an app that provides that feature. Same with a lot of other functionality. Other private APIs are things that Apple might someday offer to developers, but hasn't yet. For example, Apple can change the icon of its own apps (note the calendar app, which shows the current numeric month day, and the clock app, which shows the time including moving second hand) but it does not offer this functionality to developers. [Edit: I was wrong about this; see firloop's comment below.] If they did, the results could be off the rails, visually, and make the platform look bad, so I expect when they do allow this, they'll do it with a heavy review process in place... but that's just one small example. A lot of private APIs are more under the hood housekeeping stuff that you just don't want the average programmer to mess with.
fleitz 9y ago
What do you mean 'no excuse'? hahaha do you even code bro? Everything is littered with bugs. Usually mgmt even knows about them and has kicked them down to some later sprint. I could see myself triaging a temp file clean up bug way down the list of priorities.
- justboxing 9y ago
  > hahaha do you even code bro? Yes I do. https://github.com/theShiva/ https://github.com/theShiva/ 'no excuse' because of the context and sensitivity. It's a different issue if the programmer was leaving around some code execution log files or non-sensitive data on the disk... A file containing recordings (audio & video?) of a sexual experience doesn't constitute 'temp file clean up bug' in my world. That said, we may be working in different worlds.
GuB-42 9y ago
Hanlon's Razor : Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. I think it totally applies here. Not removing temporary files is a very common bug. As a developer, I've encountered it several times, sometimes I caused it, sometimes I fixed it, and I've seen it happen in other people software just as often. This is one of the reason I hate temporary files, they just don't wan't to be temporary.
- whatshisface 9y ago
  The Godfather's Switchblade: Make it look like an accident. Ultimately I don't think we can judge intent in situations like these, especially because it's so easy to disguise[0]. A sentence can be constructed in favor of any opinion; so I'll spare you my attempt at an alternate reading of the situation that makes them sound guilty so long as you agree that it's possible to do. I think a few questions can be raised about whether we can trust a company's claim that a problem stops exactly at the limits of what's been made publicly visible. How do we really know that select installations weren't phoning home with their captures? This is a great moment to plug the idea that we really should be able to see the source code of the software we're running. [0] http://www.underhanded-c.org/ http://www.underhanded-c.org/
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - banku_brougham 9y ago
    This is very good. The parent comment is very reasonable, but your switchblade admits the possibility of aonethig very concerning which is not easily dismissed. They did post a bug fix though.
    - metaobject 9y ago
      Well, why wouldn't they post a bug fix? I don't see how that says anything about motive/cause. They'd do that even if it was intentional.
- 9y ago
rrhd 9y ago
do you have to ask permission to do this on android?

loceng 9y ago

In the technical sense it sounds like a minor bug in, in the other implications not so minor - perhaps another mistake on their part of not being more clear with language.

cantrip 9y ago

It's possible this was only done on Android specifically because the odds of this being picked up and the app rejected by Apple are close to 100% while the odds of that happening in Google Play are about 0%.

fleitz 9y ago
haha. yeah, no. Apple catches UI issues and obvious use of private APIs. You just need the slimmest of excuses to do what you want. Like if you want to track a user's location put a location feature ANYWHERE in the app. Also if the app is using the mic outside of the app, you'd see a big red bar at the top of your screen.
- sillysaurus3 9y ago
  Does Apple hellban in cases where they discover someone was maliciously trying to call private APIs? How easy is it to get away with this long term?
  - fleitz 9y ago
    I know places that have been doing it for years. They just tell you to stop. It's basically an arms race of them trying to figure out how you're doing it and figuring out ways to prevent them from detecting it. The app has a few million users so not sure if Average Joe would just get hellbanned.
    - beefield 9y ago
      Apologies for my laziness, but what is meant by "private API" here and why Apple does not want them to be used?
      - NegativeLatency 9y ago
        Often the private APIs are used to track users, because they allow getting identifying serial numbers from the phone. Apple markets privacy as one of the features for the iPhone.
      - alsetmusic 9y ago
        > Apologies for my laziness, but what is meant by "private API" here and why Apple does not want them to be used? Private APIs are not meant for use by third-party developers. They are not publicly documented and are subject to change without warning.
      - natch 9y ago
        They are functions (in the programming sense) that can be called by other code, but Apple reserves them for their own use. They don't necessarily have anything to do with privacy, though some of them do. The "private" refers to them not being publicly documented and not provided for developer use. Internal developers at Apple are allowed to use them, but only as appropriate. Consider a function (API) that allows one to wipe the phone. Apple doesn't want just anyone to be able to write an app that provides that feature. Same with a lot of other functionality. Other private APIs are things that Apple might someday offer to developers, but hasn't yet. For example, Apple can change the icon of its own apps (note the calendar app, which shows the current numeric month day, and the clock app, which shows the time including moving second hand) but it does not offer this functionality to developers. [Edit: I was wrong about this; see firloop's comment below.] If they did, the results could be off the rails, visually, and make the platform look bad, so I expect when they do allow this, they'll do it with a heavy review process in place... but that's just one small example. A lot of private APIs are more under the hood housekeeping stuff that you just don't want the average programmer to mess with.

fleitz 9y ago

What do you mean 'no excuse'? hahaha do you even code bro? Everything is littered with bugs. Usually mgmt even knows about them and has kicked them down to some later sprint. I could see myself triaging a temp file clean up bug way down the list of priorities.

justboxing 9y ago
> hahaha do you even code bro? Yes I do. https://github.com/theShiva/ https://github.com/theShiva/ 'no excuse' because of the context and sensitivity. It's a different issue if the programmer was leaving around some code execution log files or non-sensitive data on the disk... A file containing recordings (audio & video?) of a sexual experience doesn't constitute 'temp file clean up bug' in my world. That said, we may be working in different worlds.

GuB-42 9y ago

Hanlon's Razor : Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. I think it totally applies here. Not removing temporary files is a very common bug. As a developer, I've encountered it several times, sometimes I caused it, sometimes I fixed it, and I've seen it happen in other people software just as often. This is one of the reason I hate temporary files, they just don't wan't to be temporary.

whatshisface 9y ago
The Godfather's Switchblade: Make it look like an accident. Ultimately I don't think we can judge intent in situations like these, especially because it's so easy to disguise[0]. A sentence can be constructed in favor of any opinion; so I'll spare you my attempt at an alternate reading of the situation that makes them sound guilty so long as you agree that it's possible to do. I think a few questions can be raised about whether we can trust a company's claim that a problem stops exactly at the limits of what's been made publicly visible. How do we really know that select installations weren't phoning home with their captures? This is a great moment to plug the idea that we really should be able to see the source code of the software we're running. [0] http://www.underhanded-c.org/ http://www.underhanded-c.org/
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- banku_brougham 9y ago
  This is very good. The parent comment is very reasonable, but your switchblade admits the possibility of aonethig very concerning which is not easily dismissed. They did post a bug fix though.
  - metaobject 9y ago
    Well, why wouldn't they post a bug fix? I don't see how that says anything about motive/cause. They'd do that even if it was intentional.
9y ago

rrhd 9y ago

do you have to ask permission to do this on android?