11 ms·

The Case for Star Trek: Deep Space 9 (2016)

57 points by yurisagalov 9y ago

purephase 9y ago
This is a great post. As a long time TNG fan (and fan of The Greatest Generation podcast), I never grokked DS9. I tried many times, but the first season episodes are just so bad that I can never make it though. An episode guide like this is helpful as well as the behind-the-scenes on the show in general. Thanks for sharing.
- squarefoot 9y ago
  Never judge a show by the first season, or worse the first few episodes. Cast need time to get accustomed to the part, to create alchemy etc. Also, "unusual" shows like DS9 (IMO best Trek ever) or even Babylon5 (IMO best non-Trek ever) etc. need some adjustment from the viewer. I recall hating Farscape, but decided to keep watching it anyway and in the end I loved it so much that I cried after the last episode. Now I'm watching again Stargate Atlantis (IMO best SG ever) which started strong from the very first episode, but nonetheless grew anyway with time. I wished ST Voyager could get better as well... that show had so much potential:(
- rabboRubble 9y ago
  IMO the best shows are later in the series, which is kind of rare for a long running TV show. Normally a long running show gets worse over time. I really appreciated the scope of battle scenes in the 6th and 7th seasons. The spiritual landscape implications of aiding a former enemy that you loathe. Fighting the good fight, but being mentally scarred by it.
- JeanMarcS 9y ago
  As stated in the article, the first two seasons are really not interesting most of the time. When it was broadcasted in France, there were a TNG episode then a DS9 episode. So, you know, you're in front of tv and stays. But geez were we Star Trek fans to stay to watch it. And then, after two boring seasons, it takes off. And, honestly, for me it's the best ST show. The article is very good.
- dingaling 9y ago
  I first encountered TNG somewhere in the mid-second-season during its original UK broadcast on BBC2 ( Wednesday evenings I think ) It was only a couple of decades later that I was able to watch the first season courtesy of a friend's DVDs and I was frankly glad I hadn't seen them back in 1988, they were appalling and might have put me off the show entirely. In contrast I started watching DS9 from the start, mainly due to the character of O'Brien transferring over - clever casting move and one which kept me watching the show despite a shaky start. Well, that and Dax's spots.
colanderman 9y ago
> “O’Brien Must Suffer” episodes Eh, these were among my less-liked episodes. None of them advanced the plot, they mostly made no sense relating to O'Brien's character (like, why did Starfleet choose him, a chief engineer, to run an organized crime sting operation), and the sum of these was O'Brien gaining this weird parallel backstory of him as some woebegone magnet for unluck. They were all clearly contrived; at least from reading this article I now know why. (To be fair, some were really good – like when Keiko (O'Brien's wife) was possessed by a Pa Wraith. Others were just like, what the heck, O'Brien's in jail again?) > Season one’s nadir, “Move Along Home.” Funny thing is, this is one of the more "traditionally" Trek episodes. Meet a weird species, have some misunderstanding during first contact, everyone almost dies, but j/k it's all OK in the end and we forget anything ever happened in the next episode. > Season 2 establishes one of Star Trek’s greatest characters, Elim Garak. Glad he got a call out! Was disappointed he was missing from the cast drawing, given that he plays an increasingly prominent role in the later seasons. > this would be a great time to abandon my guide and just watch the whole thing. Uhh… but make sure to skip Profit and Lace. It's objectively awful (and I love the Ferengi episodes), and I refuse to consider it canon. Unfortunately it advances the Ferengi subplot; just imagine a story that fits the plot points and you'll be better off than watching it. > Optional episodes: Take Me Out To The Holosuite I highly recommend watching this. It has nothing to do with the plot whatsoever, but it's fun to watch and does a lot of good (if silly) character building. You can tell the cast enjoyed it too.
- cholantesh 9y ago
  The one where he has memories of being in prison implanted was fantastic, and I really enjoyed the one where he infiltrates the Orion Syndicate, though I don't know if they explained why an engineer was chosen for an intelligence mission...
  - colanderman 9y ago
    You know, thinking some more, I liked the episodes individually (including the ones you mentioned). But they just always felt to me like they were made for another show or another character. So the article's explanation that O'Brien, as a "likable" character, was specifically chosen to suffer these misfortunes clears things up a bit. Not to mention they usually didn't tie into the main plot at all. Like – O'Brien has 10 years of prison psychologically weighing on his mind now! For the rest of his life! That should be a character-defining change. But it's never brought up again ever. Same thing with the "parallel universe" episodes. As set-piece action/adventure episodes, I loved them; the Intendant and the Regent are among my favorite (if over-the-top) characters. But the set-ups never made sense and they never advanced the main plot, so I always started and finished each episode a little disappointed. I think that's why the Keiko/Pa-Wraith episode stood out to me as much better than the others – it actually ties into and advances the main plot. Sure, O'Brien is again randomly the poor sap who takes the fall, but it's not forced and it actually advances the plot.
VLM 9y ago
The standard complaint about DS9 is its merely a ripoff of Babylon 5. I have not been able to stomach watching B5; if I ever have a couple hundred hours of spare time I'll attempt it, until then I'll have to trust other's opinion. Something not often mentioned is the sheer expense of these series; hundreds of hours of limited spare time have to be invested to experience it all. I watched all of DS9 when it was new and then decades later just a couple years ago; it was pleasant but compared to the alternatives I'm not sure it was a wise use of my time. I tried B5 but after a dozen or so hours invested I had barely scratched the surface yet was bored. These series are just painfully expensive. For a non-sci fi comparison try "The Sopranos" where if you're not addicted its very hard to get addicted and the time investment is insane like hundreds of hours required. Garak is the most interesting character in all of Trek. The linked story was very human focused, but if you get past the species-ism then Garak is clearly the most interesting character in all of Trek. He certainly has the most unique and interesting lines of dialogue. There are strange human sociology messages in DS9 that are kinda unrealistic. In DS9 land, individuals are extremely newness-seeking and would never interact with someone of their own kind if there's any possibility of interacting with a stranger, and the stranger the better; this political requirement has no relationship with reality of course, and as such the series suffers under a pallor of weirdness. Friendship and family and culture feel at best bolted on, or at worst are outright ridiculous. There is some relationship between DS9 and Ian Banks Culture-verse, echos of one in the other. Both are kind of a window into a future that does not contain social media and the problems resulting from social media, which is kinda weird, like experiencing a science fiction novel from just before the broadcast era that naturally does not explore the numerous effects of broadcasting. Off the top of my head I can't think of any hard sci fi that is set substantially in the future yet contains aspects of social media from a decade ago, although someone here probably has some good suggestions.
- angersock 9y ago
  If you only watched the first season of B5, your frustration and disinterest is understandable. That said, try checking out one of the suggested episodes guides and seeing if that helps. (For anybody interested in the sheer depth of the show, consult the Lurker's Guide: http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/countries/us/eplist.html http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/countries/us/eplist.html )
specialist 9y ago
Great post. Fun learning some of the back story. I love Deep Space Nine. All of it. As in: Best show ever made. I agree that DS9, along with Babylon 5, pioneered the long form TV story arc. Every single character goes thru the heroes journey. Convincingly. I love it. Benjamin Sisko is my favorite captain. I'd follow that guy into a black hole. Quark makes the show. I don't know how Armin Shimerman pulled that off. Some of the best acting ever. My favorite episodes remain the Ensign Kim stuff from Voyager. But overall, DS9 was just the best.
- rabboRubble 9y ago
  > favorite episodes remain the Ensign Kim stuff from Voyager Wait wat? Which episodes?
  - specialist 9y ago
    Well. The two episodes I continue to think about feature Kim, but aren't necessarily about him. Maybe Kim is just my favorite character. #1 Voyager gets stuck in a time thing, splits into two like Siamese Twins, Kim dies in one universe, surviving Kim gets sent across rift. That messes my head up. #2 A mimic version of Voyager starts to disintegrate. They figure out they're not the real Voyager. Their last act is mimic Kim trying to send a message out, before they disappear, so the universe knows they existed. That one really messes my head up. Please don't make me find the specific episodes. I am weak and am likely to binge watch. But I have chores to do. :)
    - rabboRubble 9y ago
      I’m a huge Trekkie and I know exactly which episodes those are. My brain kept getting stuck on the episode where he starts to transform into an alien of the male sex. Only to be at risk of sexual desiccation. I didn’t put that episode on a GOAT list however :-)
      - specialist 9y ago
        Ya, Favorite Son, that one's brutal. Good one. I'd love to hear your other faves. My least/most favorite episode is Tuvix. Dilemma! I just can't take it. And the casting, portrayal of Tuvix is just so spot on. Enterprise's Coginator is a close second. Dammit, now I've started rereading episode guides. Thanks for playing catch. This is fun.
fatjokes 9y ago
Sadly I can't imagine a show like DS9 which made you think about moral ambiguity being made today, especially in the US. The "good guys" (i.e., the Bajorans) were terrorists (and religious ones at that). In some episodes, Kira openly discussed the fact that as part of the resistance, they had to accept killing civilians and other Bajoran as collateral damage.
- icebraining 9y ago
  I don't get it, isn't moral ambiguity very popular nowadays? Dexter, Breaking Bad, The Dark Knight...
  - yen223 9y ago
    For better or worse, it's really hard to find shows where one side is clearly in the right and the other is clearly wrong.
    - nicky0 9y ago
      You could say this is shows finally reflecting real life more accurately.
- maxerickson 9y ago
  "Arrow" is pretty cheesy but it is (loosely) about the heroic main character trying not murder anymore and his murderous past always forcing him back into it. His sister periodically goes crazy and kills people to calm down (maybe they cured her of that by now?).
- ericcumbee 9y ago
  Try watching the home front and paradise lost and then think about the fact that was a few years before 9/11
InclinedPlane 9y ago
I contend that DS9 remains some of the best television ever made (and yes, I've seen, and love, The Wire). It has plenty of dumb and boring moments, but when it hits the mark it hits it so squarely and soundly that it makes a mark on the viewer for life. It takes the ball that Star Trek serieses typically play with: issues of complexity and moral difficulty that our current society is struggling with, and does more than just play around with it, DS9 knocks it out of the park. DS9 knows what it's about and isn't afraid to put a very fine point on it. Also, there's this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmdrhfA0-Fw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmdrhfA0-Fw
krylon 9y ago
For better or worse, Star Trek TNG and DS9 have played an important role in my development. I would like to think that is was a benefit. The major message of Star Trek in general and DS9 in particular is that despite of - no! because of! - our petty differences, we can all live together harmoniously. That harmony may require to people to avoid contact, but that is a - relatively - rare exception. A minor message, but an important one, I think, is that violence and force are rarely, if ever, the best way to solve a problem. With a little bit - or a lot - of cleverness you can find a solution that will be satisfactory to all the parties involved. Even if you have all the right cards, simply relying on strength is not a good foundation for a long-term arrangement. Diplomacy and Compromise is. It is a lesson - Star Trek or not - that I think could help many young people these days, Star Trek or not.
lostmsu 9y ago
I respectfully disagree, that DS9 was a step up from TNG. It all got nailed in the Gene's quote about what you will and will not see in 24th century. Star Trek for me is a sneak peak into a different future (maybe not 300 years, but 1000s). And DS9 is, basically, today, wrapped into a Sci-Fi suit. Name one episode of DS9, where you'd see a problem and its solution, and be able to say "rare living human would do this". For TNG: the entire Borg thing, and that episode with Data trying to prove a tool became sentient - is something you can't find in Trump's twitter. That is basically the same reason for the rants about Discovery: they can't make it past TNG's timeline.

57 points by yurisagalov 9y ago

This is a great post. As a long time TNG fan (and fan of The Greatest Generation podcast), I never grokked DS9. I tried many times, but the first season episodes are just so bad that I can never make it though. An episode guide like this is helpful as well as the behind-the-scenes on the show in general. Thanks for sharing.

squarefoot 9y ago
Never judge a show by the first season, or worse the first few episodes. Cast need time to get accustomed to the part, to create alchemy etc. Also, "unusual" shows like DS9 (IMO best Trek ever) or even Babylon5 (IMO best non-Trek ever) etc. need some adjustment from the viewer. I recall hating Farscape, but decided to keep watching it anyway and in the end I loved it so much that I cried after the last episode. Now I'm watching again Stargate Atlantis (IMO best SG ever) which started strong from the very first episode, but nonetheless grew anyway with time. I wished ST Voyager could get better as well... that show had so much potential:(
rabboRubble 9y ago
IMO the best shows are later in the series, which is kind of rare for a long running TV show. Normally a long running show gets worse over time. I really appreciated the scope of battle scenes in the 6th and 7th seasons. The spiritual landscape implications of aiding a former enemy that you loathe. Fighting the good fight, but being mentally scarred by it.
JeanMarcS 9y ago
As stated in the article, the first two seasons are really not interesting most of the time. When it was broadcasted in France, there were a TNG episode then a DS9 episode. So, you know, you're in front of tv and stays. But geez were we Star Trek fans to stay to watch it. And then, after two boring seasons, it takes off. And, honestly, for me it's the best ST show. The article is very good.
dingaling 9y ago
I first encountered TNG somewhere in the mid-second-season during its original UK broadcast on BBC2 ( Wednesday evenings I think ) It was only a couple of decades later that I was able to watch the first season courtesy of a friend's DVDs and I was frankly glad I hadn't seen them back in 1988, they were appalling and might have put me off the show entirely. In contrast I started watching DS9 from the start, mainly due to the character of O'Brien transferring over - clever casting move and one which kept me watching the show despite a shaky start. Well, that and Dax's spots.

colanderman 9y ago

> “O’Brien Must Suffer” episodes Eh, these were among my less-liked episodes. None of them advanced the plot, they mostly made no sense relating to O'Brien's character (like, why did Starfleet choose him, a chief engineer, to run an organized crime sting operation), and the sum of these was O'Brien gaining this weird parallel backstory of him as some woebegone magnet for unluck. They were all clearly contrived; at least from reading this article I now know why. (To be fair, some were really good – like when Keiko (O'Brien's wife) was possessed by a Pa Wraith. Others were just like, what the heck, O'Brien's in jail again?) > Season one’s nadir, “Move Along Home.” Funny thing is, this is one of the more "traditionally" Trek episodes. Meet a weird species, have some misunderstanding during first contact, everyone almost dies, but j/k it's all OK in the end and we forget anything ever happened in the next episode. > Season 2 establishes one of Star Trek’s greatest characters, Elim Garak. Glad he got a call out! Was disappointed he was missing from the cast drawing, given that he plays an increasingly prominent role in the later seasons. > this would be a great time to abandon my guide and just watch the whole thing. Uhh… but make sure to skip Profit and Lace. It's objectively awful (and I love the Ferengi episodes), and I refuse to consider it canon. Unfortunately it advances the Ferengi subplot; just imagine a story that fits the plot points and you'll be better off than watching it. > Optional episodes: Take Me Out To The Holosuite I highly recommend watching this. It has nothing to do with the plot whatsoever, but it's fun to watch and does a lot of good (if silly) character building. You can tell the cast enjoyed it too.

cholantesh 9y ago
The one where he has memories of being in prison implanted was fantastic, and I really enjoyed the one where he infiltrates the Orion Syndicate, though I don't know if they explained why an engineer was chosen for an intelligence mission...
- colanderman 9y ago
  You know, thinking some more, I liked the episodes individually (including the ones you mentioned). But they just always felt to me like they were made for another show or another character. So the article's explanation that O'Brien, as a "likable" character, was specifically chosen to suffer these misfortunes clears things up a bit. Not to mention they usually didn't tie into the main plot at all. Like – O'Brien has 10 years of prison psychologically weighing on his mind now! For the rest of his life! That should be a character-defining change. But it's never brought up again ever. Same thing with the "parallel universe" episodes. As set-piece action/adventure episodes, I loved them; the Intendant and the Regent are among my favorite (if over-the-top) characters. But the set-ups never made sense and they never advanced the main plot, so I always started and finished each episode a little disappointed. I think that's why the Keiko/Pa-Wraith episode stood out to me as much better than the others – it actually ties into and advances the main plot. Sure, O'Brien is again randomly the poor sap who takes the fall, but it's not forced and it actually advances the plot.

VLM 9y ago

The standard complaint about DS9 is its merely a ripoff of Babylon 5. I have not been able to stomach watching B5; if I ever have a couple hundred hours of spare time I'll attempt it, until then I'll have to trust other's opinion. Something not often mentioned is the sheer expense of these series; hundreds of hours of limited spare time have to be invested to experience it all. I watched all of DS9 when it was new and then decades later just a couple years ago; it was pleasant but compared to the alternatives I'm not sure it was a wise use of my time. I tried B5 but after a dozen or so hours invested I had barely scratched the surface yet was bored. These series are just painfully expensive. For a non-sci fi comparison try "The Sopranos" where if you're not addicted its very hard to get addicted and the time investment is insane like hundreds of hours required. Garak is the most interesting character in all of Trek. The linked story was very human focused, but if you get past the species-ism then Garak is clearly the most interesting character in all of Trek. He certainly has the most unique and interesting lines of dialogue. There are strange human sociology messages in DS9 that are kinda unrealistic. In DS9 land, individuals are extremely newness-seeking and would never interact with someone of their own kind if there's any possibility of interacting with a stranger, and the stranger the better; this political requirement has no relationship with reality of course, and as such the series suffers under a pallor of weirdness. Friendship and family and culture feel at best bolted on, or at worst are outright ridiculous. There is some relationship between DS9 and Ian Banks Culture-verse, echos of one in the other. Both are kind of a window into a future that does not contain social media and the problems resulting from social media, which is kinda weird, like experiencing a science fiction novel from just before the broadcast era that naturally does not explore the numerous effects of broadcasting. Off the top of my head I can't think of any hard sci fi that is set substantially in the future yet contains aspects of social media from a decade ago, although someone here probably has some good suggestions.

angersock 9y ago
If you only watched the first season of B5, your frustration and disinterest is understandable. That said, try checking out one of the suggested episodes guides and seeing if that helps. (For anybody interested in the sheer depth of the show, consult the Lurker's Guide: http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/countries/us/eplist.html http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/countries/us/eplist.html )

specialist 9y ago

Great post. Fun learning some of the back story. I love Deep Space Nine. All of it. As in: Best show ever made. I agree that DS9, along with Babylon 5, pioneered the long form TV story arc. Every single character goes thru the heroes journey. Convincingly. I love it. Benjamin Sisko is my favorite captain. I'd follow that guy into a black hole. Quark makes the show. I don't know how Armin Shimerman pulled that off. Some of the best acting ever. My favorite episodes remain the Ensign Kim stuff from Voyager. But overall, DS9 was just the best.

rabboRubble 9y ago
> favorite episodes remain the Ensign Kim stuff from Voyager Wait wat? Which episodes?
- specialist 9y ago
  Well. The two episodes I continue to think about feature Kim, but aren't necessarily about him. Maybe Kim is just my favorite character. #1 Voyager gets stuck in a time thing, splits into two like Siamese Twins, Kim dies in one universe, surviving Kim gets sent across rift. That messes my head up. #2 A mimic version of Voyager starts to disintegrate. They figure out they're not the real Voyager. Their last act is mimic Kim trying to send a message out, before they disappear, so the universe knows they existed. That one really messes my head up. Please don't make me find the specific episodes. I am weak and am likely to binge watch. But I have chores to do. :)
  - rabboRubble 9y ago
    I’m a huge Trekkie and I know exactly which episodes those are. My brain kept getting stuck on the episode where he starts to transform into an alien of the male sex. Only to be at risk of sexual desiccation. I didn’t put that episode on a GOAT list however :-)
    - specialist 9y ago
      Ya, Favorite Son, that one's brutal. Good one. I'd love to hear your other faves. My least/most favorite episode is Tuvix. Dilemma! I just can't take it. And the casting, portrayal of Tuvix is just so spot on. Enterprise's Coginator is a close second. Dammit, now I've started rereading episode guides. Thanks for playing catch. This is fun.

fatjokes 9y ago

Sadly I can't imagine a show like DS9 which made you think about moral ambiguity being made today, especially in the US. The "good guys" (i.e., the Bajorans) were terrorists (and religious ones at that). In some episodes, Kira openly discussed the fact that as part of the resistance, they had to accept killing civilians and other Bajoran as collateral damage.

icebraining 9y ago
I don't get it, isn't moral ambiguity very popular nowadays? Dexter, Breaking Bad, The Dark Knight...
- yen223 9y ago
  For better or worse, it's really hard to find shows where one side is clearly in the right and the other is clearly wrong.
  - nicky0 9y ago
    You could say this is shows finally reflecting real life more accurately.
maxerickson 9y ago
"Arrow" is pretty cheesy but it is (loosely) about the heroic main character trying not murder anymore and his murderous past always forcing him back into it. His sister periodically goes crazy and kills people to calm down (maybe they cured her of that by now?).
ericcumbee 9y ago
Try watching the home front and paradise lost and then think about the fact that was a few years before 9/11

InclinedPlane 9y ago

I contend that DS9 remains some of the best television ever made (and yes, I've seen, and love, The Wire). It has plenty of dumb and boring moments, but when it hits the mark it hits it so squarely and soundly that it makes a mark on the viewer for life. It takes the ball that Star Trek serieses typically play with: issues of complexity and moral difficulty that our current society is struggling with, and does more than just play around with it, DS9 knocks it out of the park. DS9 knows what it's about and isn't afraid to put a very fine point on it. Also, there's this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmdrhfA0-Fw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmdrhfA0-Fw

krylon 9y ago

For better or worse, Star Trek TNG and DS9 have played an important role in my development. I would like to think that is was a benefit. The major message of Star Trek in general and DS9 in particular is that despite of - no! because of! - our petty differences, we can all live together harmoniously. That harmony may require to people to avoid contact, but that is a - relatively - rare exception. A minor message, but an important one, I think, is that violence and force are rarely, if ever, the best way to solve a problem. With a little bit - or a lot - of cleverness you can find a solution that will be satisfactory to all the parties involved. Even if you have all the right cards, simply relying on strength is not a good foundation for a long-term arrangement. Diplomacy and Compromise is. It is a lesson - Star Trek or not - that I think could help many young people these days, Star Trek or not.

lostmsu 9y ago

I respectfully disagree, that DS9 was a step up from TNG. It all got nailed in the Gene's quote about what you will and will not see in 24th century. Star Trek for me is a sneak peak into a different future (maybe not 300 years, but 1000s). And DS9 is, basically, today, wrapped into a Sci-Fi suit. Name one episode of DS9, where you'd see a problem and its solution, and be able to say "rare living human would do this". For TNG: the entire Borg thing, and that episode with Data trying to prove a tool became sentient - is something you can't find in Trump's twitter. That is basically the same reason for the rants about Discovery: they can't make it past TNG's timeline.