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What is it going to take to let people offer to work for whatever wage they want? A ride sharing dApp on a blockchain? Or is the British government going to ban

What is it going to take to let people offer to work for whatever wage they want? A ride sharing dApp on a blockchain? Or is the British government going to ban peer-to-peer networks too? >>When are we going to let companies pay their employees Slave wages, you mean. So it's okay if they offer to work for a "slave wage" as a self-employed small business owner, but if they work through a third party, then it's not okay? How it taking away an option in their interest? You're reducing the avenues through which they can sell their labour, which cannot possibly be to their advantage. >>It's not going to happen - we tried that before, and it didn't work. Remember the industrial revolution? Real good working conditions and pay in those factories, eh? It worked incredibly well. Wages grew rapidly throughout the industrial revolution. What do you expect would have happened if a $15/hr minimum wage were instituted in 1875, when per capita GDP was $1,000? >>The universal basic income. It doesn't make sense that people should be denied the freedom to offer to work for whatever wage they want until universal welfare is implemented.

empath75 9y ago
When are we going to let companies pay their employees Slave wages, you mean.
Anderkent 9y ago
It's not going to happen - we tried that before, and it didn't work. Remember the industrial revolution? Real good working conditions and pay in those factories, eh?
tom_mellior 9y ago
> What is it going to take to let people offer to work for whatever wage they want? The universal basic income.
londons_explore 9y ago
Interestingly, 'volunteers' get zero salary. The law as it stands allows an employer to pay zero, or >£7.50 per hour, but nothing in between. Lots of industries circumvent that by requiring 2/3 years experience to get a job. That experience can be as an unpaid volunteer. Now, over your career, you are forced to do 3 years unpaid, then the rest of your career paid, and guess what, on average you got under minimum wage. Live with your parents for the unpaid bit.
vidarh 9y ago
> A ride sharing dApp on a blockchain? Or is the British government going to ban peer-to-peer networks too? There'd be no need to ban peer-to-peer networks - the payment method does not change anything. If there is an employer-employee relationship it'd break the law if they don't follow the regulations for such a relationship. If the drivers are genuinely small businesses, it wouldn't. > So it's okay if they offer to work for a "slave wage" as a self-employed small business owner, but if they work through a third party, then it's not okay? The implication is in part that the paperwork necessary to operate as a small business acts as a deterrent for people to enter into it without at least some degree of understanding of what they're entering into. It is providing what you're arguing for (the ability to set whatever salary you want), but at the same time protecting society against some of the worst exploitation by providing some hoops you have to jump through. > How it taking away an option in their interest? You're reducing the avenues through which they can sell their labour, which cannot possibly be to their advantage. This is nonsensical. If I offer to pay you to work in conditions that are guaranteed to be lethal, according to your arguments it can't possibly be to their advantage, because I'm reducing the avenues through which they can sell their labour. Clearly reducing the avenues alone is insufficient to determine whether or not the decision is to their advantage. > It worked incredibly well. Wages grew rapidly throughout the industrial revolution. And through most of the period, worker activism grew rapidly as well. In a great many cases, workers died during actions taken to improve working conditions and salaries. The fantasy that those improvements are purely down to lack of regulation is just that. It took repeated bloodshed to bring about those improvements, and a lot of regulations that were often also paid for in blood. If there is any takeaway from the growth in wages during the industrial revolution, it is that aggressive direct action by workers provides results.
- bm1362 9y ago
  I think they were proposing using a distributed ledger to advertise rides / driver / rider state -- not just payments.
- CryptoPunk 9y ago
  A DAO on the blockchain can be indistinguishable from a platform run by a company from the point of view of the driver. >>This is nonsensical. If I offer to pay you to work in conditions that are guaranteed to be lethal, according to your arguments it can't possibly be to their advantage, because I'm reducing the avenues through which they can sell their labour. There are no jobs that are guaranteed to be lethal. If there were, there are only two conditions under which someone would work them: 1. They are mentally incapable of making decisions for their own life, and thus should be placed under conservatorship where they are not free to make their own decisions. 2. The jobs is fraudulently advertised. In either case you don't need to resort to creating mandatory minimum employment standards like minimum wage. What you're effectively endorsing is conservatorship for the entire population. >>And through most of the period, worker activism grew rapidly as well. In a great many cases, workers died during actions taken to improve working conditions and salaries. I'm dubious about this claim. It sounds like another pop-history claim that is baseless. Do you have a source? I remember reading that workplace injuries were decreasing throughout the industrial revolution era. From what I understand regulations had no positive impact on this upward trajectory in safety. What did definitely happen during the industrial revolution is that life expectancy rapidly rose. The famines and starvation that frequently occurred prior to to the 16th century became increasingly uncommon as the economy of the West industrialized. >>If there is any takeaway from the growth in wages during the industrial revolution, it is that aggressive direct action by workers provides results. The opposite is true. There were very few labour regulations and no minimum wages instituted during the Industrial Revolution (thanks largely to legal doctrines of substantive due process guaranteeing the freedom to contract in place since the Supreme Court Lochner ruling). After the propaganda victory of the socialist parties and labour unions, extensive labour regulations were introduced. This has accelerated since the creation of the OSHA in 1970. The last 40 years have seen wage growth stagnate and life expectancy to even decline for some demographics. The Nirvana fallacy has cost generations improvements in their quality of life.

empath75 9y ago

When are we going to let companies pay their employees Slave wages, you mean.

Anderkent 9y ago

It's not going to happen - we tried that before, and it didn't work. Remember the industrial revolution? Real good working conditions and pay in those factories, eh?

tom_mellior 9y ago

> What is it going to take to let people offer to work for whatever wage they want? The universal basic income.

londons_explore 9y ago

Interestingly, 'volunteers' get zero salary. The law as it stands allows an employer to pay zero, or >£7.50 per hour, but nothing in between. Lots of industries circumvent that by requiring 2/3 years experience to get a job. That experience can be as an unpaid volunteer. Now, over your career, you are forced to do 3 years unpaid, then the rest of your career paid, and guess what, on average you got under minimum wage. Live with your parents for the unpaid bit.

vidarh 9y ago

> A ride sharing dApp on a blockchain? Or is the British government going to ban peer-to-peer networks too? There'd be no need to ban peer-to-peer networks - the payment method does not change anything. If there is an employer-employee relationship it'd break the law if they don't follow the regulations for such a relationship. If the drivers are genuinely small businesses, it wouldn't. > So it's okay if they offer to work for a "slave wage" as a self-employed small business owner, but if they work through a third party, then it's not okay? The implication is in part that the paperwork necessary to operate as a small business acts as a deterrent for people to enter into it without at least some degree of understanding of what they're entering into. It is providing what you're arguing for (the ability to set whatever salary you want), but at the same time protecting society against some of the worst exploitation by providing some hoops you have to jump through. > How it taking away an option in their interest? You're reducing the avenues through which they can sell their labour, which cannot possibly be to their advantage. This is nonsensical. If I offer to pay you to work in conditions that are guaranteed to be lethal, according to your arguments it can't possibly be to their advantage, because I'm reducing the avenues through which they can sell their labour. Clearly reducing the avenues alone is insufficient to determine whether or not the decision is to their advantage. > It worked incredibly well. Wages grew rapidly throughout the industrial revolution. And through most of the period, worker activism grew rapidly as well. In a great many cases, workers died during actions taken to improve working conditions and salaries. The fantasy that those improvements are purely down to lack of regulation is just that. It took repeated bloodshed to bring about those improvements, and a lot of regulations that were often also paid for in blood. If there is any takeaway from the growth in wages during the industrial revolution, it is that aggressive direct action by workers provides results.

bm1362 9y ago
I think they were proposing using a distributed ledger to advertise rides / driver / rider state -- not just payments.
CryptoPunk 9y ago
A DAO on the blockchain can be indistinguishable from a platform run by a company from the point of view of the driver. >>This is nonsensical. If I offer to pay you to work in conditions that are guaranteed to be lethal, according to your arguments it can't possibly be to their advantage, because I'm reducing the avenues through which they can sell their labour. There are no jobs that are guaranteed to be lethal. If there were, there are only two conditions under which someone would work them: 1. They are mentally incapable of making decisions for their own life, and thus should be placed under conservatorship where they are not free to make their own decisions. 2. The jobs is fraudulently advertised. In either case you don't need to resort to creating mandatory minimum employment standards like minimum wage. What you're effectively endorsing is conservatorship for the entire population. >>And through most of the period, worker activism grew rapidly as well. In a great many cases, workers died during actions taken to improve working conditions and salaries. I'm dubious about this claim. It sounds like another pop-history claim that is baseless. Do you have a source? I remember reading that workplace injuries were decreasing throughout the industrial revolution era. From what I understand regulations had no positive impact on this upward trajectory in safety. What did definitely happen during the industrial revolution is that life expectancy rapidly rose. The famines and starvation that frequently occurred prior to to the 16th century became increasingly uncommon as the economy of the West industrialized. >>If there is any takeaway from the growth in wages during the industrial revolution, it is that aggressive direct action by workers provides results. The opposite is true. There were very few labour regulations and no minimum wages instituted during the Industrial Revolution (thanks largely to legal doctrines of substantive due process guaranteeing the freedom to contract in place since the Supreme Court Lochner ruling). After the propaganda victory of the socialist parties and labour unions, extensive labour regulations were introduced. This has accelerated since the creation of the OSHA in 1970. The last 40 years have seen wage growth stagnate and life expectancy to even decline for some demographics. The Nirvana fallacy has cost generations improvements in their quality of life.