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Hardly a surprise a contractor in the UK, I need to be careful I'm not suddenly a "disguised employee". Uber do genuine independent contractors no favours. I do

Hardly a surprise a contractor in the UK, I need to be careful I'm not suddenly a "disguised employee". Uber do genuine independent contractors no favours. I don't blame Uber. I blame successive UK govts. who won't make the law clear and just let the courts decide on a case-by-case basis. My biggest fear is that they'll come done hard on all contractors IT Consultants through to taxi drivers.

Swinx43 9y ago
This is definitely a very legitimate fear and one which I share. I believe that given the changes made in the UK public sector for the 2016/2017 tax year this threat is ever increasing. You are absolutely correct in laying the blame at successive governments that refuse to make the law clear. Companies such as Uber and Deliveroo do not help the case as they are seen as the examples of how the term freelancer can be abused. Unfortunately I doubt that those in government care to make the distinction between this abuse of the system and genuine IT contractors.
weego 9y ago
IR35 guidelines for contractors are clear enough I feel. A lot of longer-term contractors are in fact effectively employees and and benefit from the security and structure of that yet want the tax benefits as well.
- martinald 9y ago
  Agreed.
kbart 9y ago
I'm not intimately familiar with UK labor laws, but isn't they key difference between contractor and a "disguised employee" is that who gets the payment money? If you get all the payment (excluding tax etc.) for a work done then you are contractor, if the third entity takes a payment for your work and pays you percentage of it, then you must be employee and that third party - employer - is responsible for taxes, insurance and other duties mandated by labor laws. The latter part is what Uber tries to avoid at all cost. For the same reason employment agencies are also not allowed to take fees for finding a job and required to pay no less than minimum wage[0]. 0. https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/work/rights-at-work/agency-workers/can-your-agency-charge-you-fees/ https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/work/rights-at-work/agency...
- vidarh 9y ago
  I think roughly, you come out right if you think the way you're doing. But it's a bit more subtle in that they're going after two different types of abuses: 1. Agencies that want to rent out contractors rather than contract out employees even when they treat these people as employees. 2. Relationships where one or both sides want an employee to be a contractor to benefit from tax savings. Uber seems to fall largely in 1, while e.g. IT contractors sometimes fall in 2, or is at risk of falling in 2. In our case the consideration tends to be that tightening the rules means there's a whole checklist of things that makes it more or less likely that HMRC will deem us to be de facto employed or subject to IR35 (making us pay taxes similar to if we are in employment). For #2 and to avoid IR35 there are a whole lot of considerations such as what costs we incur, whether or not we use our own equipment, whether or not we have sales and marketing costs; whether we employ someone; how many clients we have; if we have our own office for the company etc. that centre around whether or not the company has an existence independent from any given client. The reason this is important for us too, is that one avenue for a business like Uber to avoid problems with #1 is to try to restructure around not pretending that drivers clients are the people they drive, but that their client is Uber but that they're still independent. If they try stunts like that, it may result in rule changes detrimental to other, genuine contractors too.
- Cakez0r 9y ago
  It's determined based on several factors like whether you set your own schedule, whether you use your own equipment, whether you have a manager, whether you have autonomy to complete your work how you see fit. There are no hard-and-fast rules though, and from my experiences, people completely ignore it (in software contracting). See https://www.gov.uk/employment-status/selfemployed-contractor https://www.gov.uk/employment-status/selfemployed-contractor

Swinx43 9y ago

This is definitely a very legitimate fear and one which I share. I believe that given the changes made in the UK public sector for the 2016/2017 tax year this threat is ever increasing. You are absolutely correct in laying the blame at successive governments that refuse to make the law clear. Companies such as Uber and Deliveroo do not help the case as they are seen as the examples of how the term freelancer can be abused. Unfortunately I doubt that those in government care to make the distinction between this abuse of the system and genuine IT contractors.

weego 9y ago

IR35 guidelines for contractors are clear enough I feel. A lot of longer-term contractors are in fact effectively employees and and benefit from the security and structure of that yet want the tax benefits as well.

martinald 9y ago
Agreed.

kbart 9y ago

I'm not intimately familiar with UK labor laws, but isn't they key difference between contractor and a "disguised employee" is that who gets the payment money? If you get all the payment (excluding tax etc.) for a work done then you are contractor, if the third entity takes a payment for your work and pays you percentage of it, then you must be employee and that third party - employer - is responsible for taxes, insurance and other duties mandated by labor laws. The latter part is what Uber tries to avoid at all cost. For the same reason employment agencies are also not allowed to take fees for finding a job and required to pay no less than minimum wage[0]. 0. https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/work/rights-at-work/agency-workers/can-your-agency-charge-you-fees/ https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/work/rights-at-work/agency...

vidarh 9y ago
I think roughly, you come out right if you think the way you're doing. But it's a bit more subtle in that they're going after two different types of abuses: 1. Agencies that want to rent out contractors rather than contract out employees even when they treat these people as employees. 2. Relationships where one or both sides want an employee to be a contractor to benefit from tax savings. Uber seems to fall largely in 1, while e.g. IT contractors sometimes fall in 2, or is at risk of falling in 2. In our case the consideration tends to be that tightening the rules means there's a whole checklist of things that makes it more or less likely that HMRC will deem us to be de facto employed or subject to IR35 (making us pay taxes similar to if we are in employment). For #2 and to avoid IR35 there are a whole lot of considerations such as what costs we incur, whether or not we use our own equipment, whether or not we have sales and marketing costs; whether we employ someone; how many clients we have; if we have our own office for the company etc. that centre around whether or not the company has an existence independent from any given client. The reason this is important for us too, is that one avenue for a business like Uber to avoid problems with #1 is to try to restructure around not pretending that drivers clients are the people they drive, but that their client is Uber but that they're still independent. If they try stunts like that, it may result in rule changes detrimental to other, genuine contractors too.
Cakez0r 9y ago
It's determined based on several factors like whether you set your own schedule, whether you use your own equipment, whether you have a manager, whether you have autonomy to complete your work how you see fit. There are no hard-and-fast rules though, and from my experiences, people completely ignore it (in software contracting). See https://www.gov.uk/employment-status/selfemployed-contractor https://www.gov.uk/employment-status/selfemployed-contractor