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So. Much. B.S. There's only one question they need to ask: "How much are you going to pay me?" Edit: The reason anyone would wax poetically about everything

So. Much. B.S. There's only one question they need to ask: "How much are you going to pay me?" Edit: The reason anyone would wax poetically about everything else is because he or she realizes that they are not being paid enough. It is like day trading - the moment it goes against a bad trader he or she calls it "investment" Edit: Thanks for the down votes! It makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside to know that it is still possible to swindle people!

wpietri 9y ago
Nah. This is a good list of questions. Partly because startups will include equity, and you need to know these things (and more) to make a guess at valuing the equity. And partly because a company without strong answers is likely to be out of business soon; changing jobs unexpectedly can be expensive, especially if you get stiffed on wages. But mostly because it really sucks to spend a couple of years building stuff that never gets used. There are a few people who seem happy to get paid even if nothing is achieved. But most engineers I know do the work because the like building things that get used, things that are valuable.
- 0xbear 9y ago
  Unless you are employee #1-5, the correct approach to valuing equity is to not consider it to be worth anything. For employees 1-5, divide the numbers the CEO gives you by at least 10 to account for risk, and then demand a competitive base pay.
  - wpietri 9y ago
    Yes and no. I agree should expect zero to come out of it, as it's a pretty low probability you'll see anything. But you still have to do the work of valuing it. First off, the people you're negotiating with see it as valuable, so it's a very bad negotiating move to say, "Keep your dumb equity and just give me cash." You'd be slightly better off just pointing to their family photo and saying, "Wow, your kids are ugly." Second, going through the work of valuing equity is necessary to see how the investors (that is, they people actually paying your salary) look at the company. Third, on the off chance you are successful, you're going to really wish you took the equity part of the negotiation seriously.
    - 0xbear 9y ago
      People you’re negotiating with want you to buy their line that their equity is worth something so they could pay you less. What would you get as eg employee #10? Half a percent or less. Most startups exit under $100M, and your 0.5% turns into 0.25% due to dilution. It’s also vested over 4 years. We’re talking $250k max over 4 years, with a 5% chance you’ll get anything at all. You’d have to be seriously arithmetically challenged to take that seriously.
      - notyourday 9y ago
        People are arithmetically challenged. People also like to boast about doing good etc. Typically they realize how stupidly naive they were just around the time they no longer have ability to say "That's nice to know. So how much are you going to pay me?" The down votes on calling spade a spade demonstrate it quite well
dagw 9y ago
"How much are you going to pay me?" Sure, but the 'correct' answer to that question depends on a lot of other factors related to the job. If you want me to work long hours, doing dull, morally dubious, work in a high stress environment you're going to have to pay me a lot more.
- notyourday 9y ago
  You are looking at the other factors to justify the smaller pay than you know you are get elsewhere. Should you be telling people about how much money you make you would be using a word "but" followed by the list of these factors. Sleep on that.
  - dagw 9y ago
    You are looking at the other factors to justify the smaller pay than you know you are get elsewhere Absolutely. Money is just one of many factors I consider when choosing a job. I see no 'shame' in that. I honestly have/earn enough money to cover all my expenses, so getting a bit more isn't that super important to me. As long as you meet my floor I'm willing to negotiate away money for other perks. I'd rather have time to spend my money rather than just more money.

wpietri 9y ago

Nah. This is a good list of questions. Partly because startups will include equity, and you need to know these things (and more) to make a guess at valuing the equity. And partly because a company without strong answers is likely to be out of business soon; changing jobs unexpectedly can be expensive, especially if you get stiffed on wages. But mostly because it really sucks to spend a couple of years building stuff that never gets used. There are a few people who seem happy to get paid even if nothing is achieved. But most engineers I know do the work because the like building things that get used, things that are valuable.

0xbear 9y ago
Unless you are employee #1-5, the correct approach to valuing equity is to not consider it to be worth anything. For employees 1-5, divide the numbers the CEO gives you by at least 10 to account for risk, and then demand a competitive base pay.
- wpietri 9y ago
  Yes and no. I agree should expect zero to come out of it, as it's a pretty low probability you'll see anything. But you still have to do the work of valuing it. First off, the people you're negotiating with see it as valuable, so it's a very bad negotiating move to say, "Keep your dumb equity and just give me cash." You'd be slightly better off just pointing to their family photo and saying, "Wow, your kids are ugly." Second, going through the work of valuing equity is necessary to see how the investors (that is, they people actually paying your salary) look at the company. Third, on the off chance you are successful, you're going to really wish you took the equity part of the negotiation seriously.
  - 0xbear 9y ago
    People you’re negotiating with want you to buy their line that their equity is worth something so they could pay you less. What would you get as eg employee #10? Half a percent or less. Most startups exit under $100M, and your 0.5% turns into 0.25% due to dilution. It’s also vested over 4 years. We’re talking $250k max over 4 years, with a 5% chance you’ll get anything at all. You’d have to be seriously arithmetically challenged to take that seriously.
    - notyourday 9y ago
      People are arithmetically challenged. People also like to boast about doing good etc. Typically they realize how stupidly naive they were just around the time they no longer have ability to say "That's nice to know. So how much are you going to pay me?" The down votes on calling spade a spade demonstrate it quite well

dagw 9y ago

"How much are you going to pay me?" Sure, but the 'correct' answer to that question depends on a lot of other factors related to the job. If you want me to work long hours, doing dull, morally dubious, work in a high stress environment you're going to have to pay me a lot more.

notyourday 9y ago
You are looking at the other factors to justify the smaller pay than you know you are get elsewhere. Should you be telling people about how much money you make you would be using a word "but" followed by the list of these factors. Sleep on that.
- dagw 9y ago
  You are looking at the other factors to justify the smaller pay than you know you are get elsewhere Absolutely. Money is just one of many factors I consider when choosing a job. I see no 'shame' in that. I honestly have/earn enough money to cover all my expenses, so getting a bit more isn't that super important to me. As long as you meet my floor I'm willing to negotiate away money for other perks. I'd rather have time to spend my money rather than just more money.