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The government has demonstrated that they will abuse every power given to them, and even those that weren't. I would not entrust every aspect of my personal inf

by c3534l 9y ago

The government has demonstrated that they will abuse every power given to them, and even those that weren't. I would not entrust every aspect of my personal information to the very same organizations that indefinitely detains people, including American citizens, without access to a lawyer while commiting acts of torture; and the ones that said the Patriot Act could never be used for domestic surveilance; that lied about being unable to unlock the phone of the last guy they tried this with to get the law changed; and that continues to engage in parallel construction, torture by proxy, and extraordinary rendition. And now they're saying that we should trust them to stop those bad guys once again. And the most chilling aspect of this request, despite its inherent absurdity, unenforcibility, and threat to freedom and privacy, is that they have a very good chance of winning that power.

alsetmusic 9y ago
> that lied about being unable to unlock the phone of the last guy they tried this with to get the law changed… I found it very telling that they announced their inability to access the phone only a few days after the incident. It struck me as a very clear PR move that was designed to lay the groundwork to shape public opinion. My threshold for declaring that the device is inaccessible requires more time for research and effort than this.
- c3534l 9y ago
  Don't forget that the phone was unencrypted when they got it, and that it was the FBI who locked it in the first place: https://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/02/technology/apple-and-fbi-face-off-before-house-judiciary-committee.html https://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/02/technology/apple-and-fbi-...
  - alsetmusic 9y ago
    I have no idea how I never knew that. I thought I followed the case fairly well, but had never read about user error on the part of the FBI. For all the articles written, this was a very under reported detail.
indubitable 9y ago
Everything you're saying is true, but I think there's something far less dramatic that somehow rings true for people even more. One revelation of Snowden is that the NSA would regularly 'seize' and pass around attractive nudes and other such media that were intercepted from people. [1] At other times there was something that even got its own little name 'LOVEINT' which would involve NSA workers spying on their love or romantic interests for reasons. [2] When you talk about things like torture nobody really worries about things like that happening to them, because it mostly won't. But I think people tend to forget that these ABC agencies are made up of people. People that, like all people, are very flawed. My family tends to be of the 'I don't care - I have nothing to hide' state of mind. Referencing these events, which are really just basic consequences of human nature, sent them on a 180 fast. [1] - http://www.businessinsider.com/edward-snowden-guardian-interview-on-naked-photos-2014-7 http://www.businessinsider.com/edward-snowden-guardian-inter... [2] - https://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2013/08/23/nsa-officers-sometimes-spy-on-love-interests/ https://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2013/08/23/nsa-officers-somet...
- Moru 9y ago
  Another thing to the debate about "I have nothing to hide": Who decides what is meaningfull to hide in 20 years time? The relationships you had 20 years ago, what are they doing now? You don't know but the government surely does and you had connections to these people that now are possible terrorists. Good luck getting through the security check at the next airport.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
gldalmaso 9y ago
Also, if they can't even properly secure their own cyber offensive tools. How long until other actors get hold of the backdoor keys? It would basically render the effort of encryption moot. They shouldn't even be asking for this power if they can't at least academically prove that they can't mess it up.
ben_w 9y ago
> The government has demonstrated that they will abuse every power given to them, and even those that weren't I think this mixes up what is true and what people (myself included) wish was true. Governments don’t have power given to them. Their default state is God-Kings ruling on personal whims. Governments have power taken from them, either by corporations, or by religions, or by other governments — sometimes these groups even call themselves “the people” — but the restrictions are not stable equilibriums, they are constantly fought against on all sides.
- sophont42 9y ago
  Not true. In the US, power was given, and then slowly taken as we grew more Federalized. Then a big jump with Lincoln’s grabs during the Civil War, and a long period of incremental creep since then.
- mmjaa 9y ago
  Governments always gain their power from the governed, and nowhere else. This fact is always resisted by those who know it because it a) makes the people responsible for the actions of their government and b) makes the government responsible for their people. For as long as we ignore this fact, we'll get corrupt governments. Alas, its also a key reason that governments are corrupt - a government is only as ethical as the people it governs.

by c3534l 9y ago

alsetmusic 9y ago

> that lied about being unable to unlock the phone of the last guy they tried this with to get the law changed… I found it very telling that they announced their inability to access the phone only a few days after the incident. It struck me as a very clear PR move that was designed to lay the groundwork to shape public opinion. My threshold for declaring that the device is inaccessible requires more time for research and effort than this.

c3534l 9y ago
Don't forget that the phone was unencrypted when they got it, and that it was the FBI who locked it in the first place: https://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/02/technology/apple-and-fbi-face-off-before-house-judiciary-committee.html https://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/02/technology/apple-and-fbi-...
- alsetmusic 9y ago
  I have no idea how I never knew that. I thought I followed the case fairly well, but had never read about user error on the part of the FBI. For all the articles written, this was a very under reported detail.

indubitable 9y ago

Everything you're saying is true, but I think there's something far less dramatic that somehow rings true for people even more. One revelation of Snowden is that the NSA would regularly 'seize' and pass around attractive nudes and other such media that were intercepted from people. [1] At other times there was something that even got its own little name 'LOVEINT' which would involve NSA workers spying on their love or romantic interests for reasons. [2] When you talk about things like torture nobody really worries about things like that happening to them, because it mostly won't. But I think people tend to forget that these ABC agencies are made up of people. People that, like all people, are very flawed. My family tends to be of the 'I don't care - I have nothing to hide' state of mind. Referencing these events, which are really just basic consequences of human nature, sent them on a 180 fast. [1] - http://www.businessinsider.com/edward-snowden-guardian-interview-on-naked-photos-2014-7 http://www.businessinsider.com/edward-snowden-guardian-inter... [2] - https://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2013/08/23/nsa-officers-sometimes-spy-on-love-interests/ https://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2013/08/23/nsa-officers-somet...

Moru 9y ago
Another thing to the debate about "I have nothing to hide": Who decides what is meaningfull to hide in 20 years time? The relationships you had 20 years ago, what are they doing now? You don't know but the government surely does and you had connections to these people that now are possible terrorists. Good luck getting through the security check at the next airport.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]

gldalmaso 9y ago

Also, if they can't even properly secure their own cyber offensive tools. How long until other actors get hold of the backdoor keys? It would basically render the effort of encryption moot. They shouldn't even be asking for this power if they can't at least academically prove that they can't mess it up.

ben_w 9y ago

> The government has demonstrated that they will abuse every power given to them, and even those that weren't I think this mixes up what is true and what people (myself included) wish was true. Governments don’t have power given to them. Their default state is God-Kings ruling on personal whims. Governments have power taken from them, either by corporations, or by religions, or by other governments — sometimes these groups even call themselves “the people” — but the restrictions are not stable equilibriums, they are constantly fought against on all sides.

sophont42 9y ago
Not true. In the US, power was given, and then slowly taken as we grew more Federalized. Then a big jump with Lincoln’s grabs during the Civil War, and a long period of incremental creep since then.
mmjaa 9y ago
Governments always gain their power from the governed, and nowhere else. This fact is always resisted by those who know it because it a) makes the people responsible for the actions of their government and b) makes the government responsible for their people. For as long as we ignore this fact, we'll get corrupt governments. Alas, its also a key reason that governments are corrupt - a government is only as ethical as the people it governs.