4 ms·

They effectively are, aren't they? They get paid the same but it buys less stuff.

seibelj 9y ago
Maybe inflation was a bad example, but my point is that expecting all productivity gains to translate into pay raises is ridiculous. To start with, the exoskeleton is a huge capital expense, which the employee is not paying.
- forapurpose 9y ago
  To avoid redundancy: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15668017 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15668017
  - seibelj 9y ago
    A business is built on all of the technology and knowledge available in the world, and exists to add value to society. An employee doesn’t deserve some sort of “productivity benefit” because they are utilizing the same technologies as everyone else. If you want profit in excess of what the market will pay for your skills then you need to take risk yourself - start a business and make as much profit (or loss) as you are capable of. There is a section of society that advocates for making laws that artificially pay people more than they are worth by forcing business owners to pay above market wages. This will make employees artificially more expensive and encourage alternative mechanisms to reduce labor costs (automation / outsourcing). In the best situation, there would be no minimum wage. Society could choose to top-up wages with whatever benefit they want (basic income perhaps) and let the market freely determine wages. The more you warp the free market, the more unintended consequences you have.
    - forapurpose 9y ago
      A few thoughts: I understand the theories, but the real world doesn't operate that way; the market isn't free. Income depends to a significant degree on the ability to write the rules of the marketplace and labor law in your favor, and the resources to utilize those rules and laws (e.g., money and lawyers); workers don't have such influence and resources. Consider Uber and its non-employee employees, for example. It also depends to a great degree on who you know and who your parents were. Also, I'll point out that a backup offensive lineman in the NFL, junior attorneys and investment bankers in NY, and many similarly situated people in Silicon Valley make more than the U.S. military officer in command of the entire Asia-Pacific region, many Nobel Prize winners, many doctors saving lives right now, not to mention social workers, teachers, diplomats, almost all scientists in academia, etc. People are paid based on supply and demand for whatever they offer (with supply and demand being determined by everything I discussed above). Starting a business isn't the only way to participate or take risks in the market. You also can try to sell your skills to another employer.
      - seibelj 9y ago
        You will never make above what the market will offer for your skills. To make money in excess of what you can earn for your skills, you must have equity in the entity. Switching jobs is getting more for your skills, but is still participating in the market for labor. Working for the government - say as a soldier or social worker - doesn’t mean you deserve more than an investment banker. Your choice was to work for that industry. Perceived impact on society does not translate into wealth. Free markets determine pricing. A soldier earns whatever a politician says he or she does. Any employee of Uber can leave at any time. No one is forcing them into that economic situation. Plenty of examples of people who grow up poor become rich despite not having well connected parents. What changes to the system are you advocating for exactly?

Maybe inflation was a bad example, but my point is that expecting all productivity gains to translate into pay raises is ridiculous. To start with, the exoskeleton is a huge capital expense, which the employee is not paying.

forapurpose 9y ago
To avoid redundancy: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15668017 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15668017
- seibelj 9y ago
  A business is built on all of the technology and knowledge available in the world, and exists to add value to society. An employee doesn’t deserve some sort of “productivity benefit” because they are utilizing the same technologies as everyone else. If you want profit in excess of what the market will pay for your skills then you need to take risk yourself - start a business and make as much profit (or loss) as you are capable of. There is a section of society that advocates for making laws that artificially pay people more than they are worth by forcing business owners to pay above market wages. This will make employees artificially more expensive and encourage alternative mechanisms to reduce labor costs (automation / outsourcing). In the best situation, there would be no minimum wage. Society could choose to top-up wages with whatever benefit they want (basic income perhaps) and let the market freely determine wages. The more you warp the free market, the more unintended consequences you have.
  - forapurpose 9y ago
    A few thoughts: I understand the theories, but the real world doesn't operate that way; the market isn't free. Income depends to a significant degree on the ability to write the rules of the marketplace and labor law in your favor, and the resources to utilize those rules and laws (e.g., money and lawyers); workers don't have such influence and resources. Consider Uber and its non-employee employees, for example. It also depends to a great degree on who you know and who your parents were. Also, I'll point out that a backup offensive lineman in the NFL, junior attorneys and investment bankers in NY, and many similarly situated people in Silicon Valley make more than the U.S. military officer in command of the entire Asia-Pacific region, many Nobel Prize winners, many doctors saving lives right now, not to mention social workers, teachers, diplomats, almost all scientists in academia, etc. People are paid based on supply and demand for whatever they offer (with supply and demand being determined by everything I discussed above). Starting a business isn't the only way to participate or take risks in the market. You also can try to sell your skills to another employer.
    - seibelj 9y ago
      You will never make above what the market will offer for your skills. To make money in excess of what you can earn for your skills, you must have equity in the entity. Switching jobs is getting more for your skills, but is still participating in the market for labor. Working for the government - say as a soldier or social worker - doesn’t mean you deserve more than an investment banker. Your choice was to work for that industry. Perceived impact on society does not translate into wealth. Free markets determine pricing. A soldier earns whatever a politician says he or she does. Any employee of Uber can leave at any time. No one is forcing them into that economic situation. Plenty of examples of people who grow up poor become rich despite not having well connected parents. What changes to the system are you advocating for exactly?