8 ms·

Alcohol is definitely one of the most harmful drugs out there. In terms of addictiveness, physical side effects (short and long term), and the kind of behavior

Alcohol is definitely one of the most harmful drugs out there. In terms of addictiveness, physical side effects (short and long term), and the kind of behavior that people are likely to engage in while under the influence, the only things worse are probably IV painkillers and smoked meth/crack. As a society we need to get our heads out of our asses and challenge our notions of what kind of drug use is and isn't acceptable. It's happening with weed, but unfortunately doesn't seem to be transferring to all/most other illegal drugs that aren't that harmful. It's perfectly fine to tell my boss that I got too drunk on Friday but if I tell him that I took psychedelic mushrooms or my friend's ADHD meds I probably wouldn't be employed much longer. Alcoholism and propensity to addiction run through both sides of my family. Three out of four grandparents alcoholics, three out of four aunts/uncles alcoholics. I have nothing against alcohol use and drink myself, but I have to wonder how successful my family would have been if they lived in a society that hadn't (implicitly, if not explicitly) pressured them to drink, or if they had access to something they could "focus" their addiction on that wouldn't be as harmful as alcohol.

macspoofing 9y ago
>It's perfectly fine to tell my boss that I got too drunk on Friday but if I tell him that I took psychedelic mushrooms or my friend's ADHD meds I probably wouldn't be employed much longer. So? I ask seriously - what are you arguing for exactly.
- opportune 9y ago
  We should gauge drugs based on how harmful they are, from a legislative and social standpoint. There's a lot of misinformation regarding the harmfulness of currently-illegal drugs, just as there is a sort of silence as to exactly how dangerous alcohol is.
  - Buttes 9y ago
    Ya, for example, I've seen people react with surprise when they're told (withdrawal from) heavy drinking can cause life threatening seizures.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- tree_of_item 9y ago
  Perhaps they're arguing for the ability to share information about their psychedelic use without social sanctions.
  - macspoofing 9y ago
    I'll restate your point: 'they're arguing for the ability to share information about their ILLEGAL drug use without social sanctions.' That's the difference between alcohol and LSD.
    - tree_of_item 9y ago
      Why is it illegal? Alcohol is vastly more dangerous than LSD. That's the real difference, so it's curious that the legality is the other way around.
maxxxxx 9y ago
There was a thing on BBC where they rated drugs by their danger. If I remember correctly, nicotine and alcohol were way up the list, much higher than most illegal drugs.
- chiefalchemist 9y ago
  Well, the impact is greater because the availability is much wider. Social acceptance can make most any evil the norn. Just look at obesity/diabetes. Now there's a killer no one REALLY wants to talk about.
  - gozur88 9y ago
    People talk about obesity all the time. The problem is nobody knows what to do about it.
    - maxxxxx 9y ago
      I think we know what to do but nobody has the courage to do something.
      - gozur88 9y ago
        Oh? What should we do?
        maxxxxx 9y ago
        Stop subsidizing junk food. Stop advertising junk food to children (if it's not ok for children to hear he f word it's also not ok to for them to hear about junk food). Subsidize healthy foods. Tax sugary drinks. Do you want more?
        taneq 9y ago
        Also stop normalising excessive portion sizes.
conanbatt 9y ago
There is a case to do policy that relates to dealing with addiction and public health, but I garner immediate rejection at the idea that the State should devise policy with the goals of affecting what people should or should not do with themselves. The 'war on crime' is a modern example of what happens to both consumers and providers when the State gets between them. Edit: I meant 'War on drugs'.
- opportune 9y ago
  I agree completely, but in reality people will just think "lol he wants to make cocaine legal, what a whack job." The war on drugs is entirely contrary to the concept of personal liberty. In fact if you read up on the history of the war on drugs, usually it wasn't even motivated by public health. Alcohol was first made illegal largely because of anti-catholic and anti-Irish sentiments (also, interestingly, as part of the women's movement!). Marijuana was made illegal because it was associated with Mexicans. Psychedelics were cracked down on because of the hippies. Crack possession carried harsher penalties than cocaine because it was used by poor black people.
chiefalchemist 9y ago
IDK but more than one addict has told me their habit was a symptom of a deeper (emotional?) ill. So we could ban alcohol but then what? Would that solve a problem or will something else just take its place?
- opportune 9y ago
  It definitely is, but that doesn't mean that you can't be more likely to develop an addiction as a response to that deeper ill. For example, suppose persons A and B are both very stressed due to work and are worried about their marriages falling apart. Individually each is definitely more likely to become an alcoholic than if they didn't have those problems. However, if person B has addictive genetics, that may mean a 40% chance of developing alcoholism (obviously this is more complicated than a simple probability) vs. person A's 5% chance. I'm not advocating banning alcohol at all, I would actually be very opposed to that. I just think it shouldn't be the default drug of choice considering how harmful it is. Now, I have no idea how to change that, but ACCURATE and UNDERSTANDING (i.e. non-adversarial) drug education would be a good place to start. Basically I see drug education now as analogous to abstinence-only sex education. Instead of spreading scientific information about dangers, side effects, etc. it just focuses on fear-mongering and misinformation. We currently view a "drug-user" (someone who uses drugs, not necessarily an addict) the way people saw "sluts" not so long ago.
- leggomylibro 9y ago
  Most addictions, or at least vice dependencies, are probably symptoms of deeper emotional issues. People wouldn't try to knock themselves out or change how they perceived the world if they were happy with how it was at the moment. Sure, drugs like alcohol and heroin can introduce severe physical dependencies with consistent use, but I don't think many people start slamming whisky every night on a whim. So okay, fair enough, regulating alcohol more strictly won't solve the malaise of our zeitgeist, but it might steer people towards other vices that are less likely to seriously hurt them or others in the short or long term. Like...well, that's probably a pretty short list right now, but if we were more open-minded as a society about more victimless vices, that might change.
- karmapolic 9y ago
brightsize 9y ago
>It's perfectly fine to tell my boss that I got too drunk on Friday Hell if you worked at a startup, you and your boss might have both gotten drunk at the office together after raiding the "fully-stocked beer cooler". The in-office beer was part of the recruitment strategy of the company after all. Bottoms-up! I'm a beer-drinker but I still find it astonishing that some startups are providing an addictive and risky drug to employees as a perk.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- microcolonel 9y ago
  Beer is wonderful after a day of hard work, it is addictive to alcoholics, and risky in large doses. I prefer to buy it myself though, I don't really approve of these things as company perks, since you know it is really meant to bargain down salaries.
  - zenlikethat 9y ago
    That certainly does happen a lot but in cases where people are paid fairly having free (good) booze available for responsible drinking is also pretty great.
    - microcolonel 9y ago
      > (good) Heheh, yeah, that's the other hard part. I've seen it go two bad directions. On one side, the cheapskates buy the beer, and they buy the stuff that's expensive enough to get something better, but which is not refreshing to nurse one or two of after some crunch time work. On the other side, the beer snobs take hold, and most of the beer becomes too bitter or too sour for most people's tastes, and again not very refreshing.
munificent 9y ago
> Alcohol is definitely one of the most harmful drugs out there. What is your definition of "harmful" here? Is it just total amount of harm caused, or total harm divided by number of users? If the former, sure, but I think that just reflects how hugely popular it is. If the latter, I'd like to see your data. Some large fraction of the adult population consumes alcohol on a fairly regular basis so I imagine society would collapse if it was as harmful on a per capita basis as something like cocaine or heroin.
- scythe 9y ago
  I think mostly when people cite this they are referring to this study: https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/addiction/news/20101101/alcohol-more-harmful-than-crack-or-heroin#1 https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/addiction/news/20101101/... Alcohol ranks very highly because of it's severe harmful effects on the body. However, behavioral effects tend to be those which make drug users a threat to society. But cocaine's harm is highly dependent on its form. In some pre-Colombian civilizations, as well as in some parts of modern Colombia and Peru, drinking coca tea is/was quite common, and yet life carries on without serious problems. However, smoked and snorted cocaine tend to cause severe behavioral problems in a subset of users, and high doses of cocaine can cause heart attacks. Legalizing coca leaf/tea is an approach I've toyed with to significantly reduce the profit margin of drug trafficking (hopefully) without increasing the use parenteral cocaine too much.
  - adriand 9y ago
    A big obvious difference between alcohol and other drugs that also makes it popular is that in moderation it is not all that intoxicating or impairing. Unlike marijuana and mushrooms it is easily possible to have a drink or two and function normally. This accounts for a lot of its social acceptability. Simply put, unless you really overindulge, it doesn’t “fuck you up”. This is also generally true of hard drugs like heroin and cocaine, but here I think the addictive qualities are what makes them a social problem.
    - xtian 9y ago
dsnuh 9y ago
Alcohol is shilled so hard in America. It's disgusting. I honestly don't know why it isn't more strictly regulated. I used to binge drink every few nights when I was younger. Like most people that have drank more than they should have, I have lots of stories of mischief and questionable (at best, sometimes straight illegal) behavior. And these are the stories I used to trade with friends and coworkers. Oh man, they were legendary, right? This is the thing I see most often that just disappoints menow that that's not me anymore and I have realized that alcohol is a terrible drug. The celebration of behavior that is written off to alcohol and thus, totally fine and even funny. Everyone has a story. It's like when you quit smoking and are no longer blind to cigarette butts on the ground everywhere.
- Retra 9y ago
  One of my friends growing up had a child when he was a teenager, and he and I had a candid talk about this sort of thing once. I pointed out that he was close to his father, who would always tell him stories of all the 'legendary' and reckless mischief he made, and how he's somehow grown up to make the same kinds of mistakes, whereas I never knew my father, and thus didn't have any legendary tales to idolize, instead spending my time trying to figure out who I wanted to be on my own. And I basically said "when you go on to tell your child about all the fun you had causing mischief, make sure you understand that they're probably going to look up to you no matter what stories you tell them. Make sure you tell them ones worth hearing." Off-topic, but this is one of the reason's I get irritated with this "child needs both parents" crap that people spout sometimes. A child needs as many good parents as they can find, and sometimes that number is 1.
  - dsnuh 9y ago
    Totally on point. If you are an American, I challenge you to start noticing: "Oh man, I was soooo shitfaced..." "I was so hungover..." "Dude, I don't even know how I made it home..." "Nah, I'm fine to drive..." "I'm sorry, it was the booze talking..." "I need a fuckin' drink after this..." "One for the road..." "I don't give a shit, I need to piss..." "Fuuuuuck it!" Notice the advertising in convenience stores. The standees of scantily clad women holding a frosty bottle of beer. Usually near the Slurpee section. Or maybe they came and switched it out to a football playeror a jolly Santa made out of 12 packs. Tis the season! America needs to wake up. I don't believe in prohibition of any drug, but I believe even in the current system it should be reclassified Schedule I.

macspoofing 9y ago

>It's perfectly fine to tell my boss that I got too drunk on Friday but if I tell him that I took psychedelic mushrooms or my friend's ADHD meds I probably wouldn't be employed much longer. So? I ask seriously - what are you arguing for exactly.

opportune 9y ago
We should gauge drugs based on how harmful they are, from a legislative and social standpoint. There's a lot of misinformation regarding the harmfulness of currently-illegal drugs, just as there is a sort of silence as to exactly how dangerous alcohol is.
- Buttes 9y ago
  Ya, for example, I've seen people react with surprise when they're told (withdrawal from) heavy drinking can cause life threatening seizures.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
tree_of_item 9y ago
Perhaps they're arguing for the ability to share information about their psychedelic use without social sanctions.
- macspoofing 9y ago
  I'll restate your point: 'they're arguing for the ability to share information about their ILLEGAL drug use without social sanctions.' That's the difference between alcohol and LSD.
  - tree_of_item 9y ago
    Why is it illegal? Alcohol is vastly more dangerous than LSD. That's the real difference, so it's curious that the legality is the other way around.

maxxxxx 9y ago

There was a thing on BBC where they rated drugs by their danger. If I remember correctly, nicotine and alcohol were way up the list, much higher than most illegal drugs.

chiefalchemist 9y ago
Well, the impact is greater because the availability is much wider. Social acceptance can make most any evil the norn. Just look at obesity/diabetes. Now there's a killer no one REALLY wants to talk about.
- gozur88 9y ago
  People talk about obesity all the time. The problem is nobody knows what to do about it.
  - maxxxxx 9y ago
    I think we know what to do but nobody has the courage to do something.
    - gozur88 9y ago
      Oh? What should we do?
      - maxxxxx 9y ago
        Stop subsidizing junk food. Stop advertising junk food to children (if it's not ok for children to hear he f word it's also not ok to for them to hear about junk food). Subsidize healthy foods. Tax sugary drinks. Do you want more?
        taneq 9y ago
        Also stop normalising excessive portion sizes.

conanbatt 9y ago

There is a case to do policy that relates to dealing with addiction and public health, but I garner immediate rejection at the idea that the State should devise policy with the goals of affecting what people should or should not do with themselves. The 'war on crime' is a modern example of what happens to both consumers and providers when the State gets between them. Edit: I meant 'War on drugs'.

opportune 9y ago
I agree completely, but in reality people will just think "lol he wants to make cocaine legal, what a whack job." The war on drugs is entirely contrary to the concept of personal liberty. In fact if you read up on the history of the war on drugs, usually it wasn't even motivated by public health. Alcohol was first made illegal largely because of anti-catholic and anti-Irish sentiments (also, interestingly, as part of the women's movement!). Marijuana was made illegal because it was associated with Mexicans. Psychedelics were cracked down on because of the hippies. Crack possession carried harsher penalties than cocaine because it was used by poor black people.

chiefalchemist 9y ago

IDK but more than one addict has told me their habit was a symptom of a deeper (emotional?) ill. So we could ban alcohol but then what? Would that solve a problem or will something else just take its place?

opportune 9y ago
It definitely is, but that doesn't mean that you can't be more likely to develop an addiction as a response to that deeper ill. For example, suppose persons A and B are both very stressed due to work and are worried about their marriages falling apart. Individually each is definitely more likely to become an alcoholic than if they didn't have those problems. However, if person B has addictive genetics, that may mean a 40% chance of developing alcoholism (obviously this is more complicated than a simple probability) vs. person A's 5% chance. I'm not advocating banning alcohol at all, I would actually be very opposed to that. I just think it shouldn't be the default drug of choice considering how harmful it is. Now, I have no idea how to change that, but ACCURATE and UNDERSTANDING (i.e. non-adversarial) drug education would be a good place to start. Basically I see drug education now as analogous to abstinence-only sex education. Instead of spreading scientific information about dangers, side effects, etc. it just focuses on fear-mongering and misinformation. We currently view a "drug-user" (someone who uses drugs, not necessarily an addict) the way people saw "sluts" not so long ago.
leggomylibro 9y ago
Most addictions, or at least vice dependencies, are probably symptoms of deeper emotional issues. People wouldn't try to knock themselves out or change how they perceived the world if they were happy with how it was at the moment. Sure, drugs like alcohol and heroin can introduce severe physical dependencies with consistent use, but I don't think many people start slamming whisky every night on a whim. So okay, fair enough, regulating alcohol more strictly won't solve the malaise of our zeitgeist, but it might steer people towards other vices that are less likely to seriously hurt them or others in the short or long term. Like...well, that's probably a pretty short list right now, but if we were more open-minded as a society about more victimless vices, that might change.
karmapolic 9y ago

brightsize 9y ago

>It's perfectly fine to tell my boss that I got too drunk on Friday Hell if you worked at a startup, you and your boss might have both gotten drunk at the office together after raiding the "fully-stocked beer cooler". The in-office beer was part of the recruitment strategy of the company after all. Bottoms-up! I'm a beer-drinker but I still find it astonishing that some startups are providing an addictive and risky drug to employees as a perk.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
microcolonel 9y ago
Beer is wonderful after a day of hard work, it is addictive to alcoholics, and risky in large doses. I prefer to buy it myself though, I don't really approve of these things as company perks, since you know it is really meant to bargain down salaries.
- zenlikethat 9y ago
  That certainly does happen a lot but in cases where people are paid fairly having free (good) booze available for responsible drinking is also pretty great.
  - microcolonel 9y ago
    > (good) Heheh, yeah, that's the other hard part. I've seen it go two bad directions. On one side, the cheapskates buy the beer, and they buy the stuff that's expensive enough to get something better, but which is not refreshing to nurse one or two of after some crunch time work. On the other side, the beer snobs take hold, and most of the beer becomes too bitter or too sour for most people's tastes, and again not very refreshing.

munificent 9y ago

> Alcohol is definitely one of the most harmful drugs out there. What is your definition of "harmful" here? Is it just total amount of harm caused, or total harm divided by number of users? If the former, sure, but I think that just reflects how hugely popular it is. If the latter, I'd like to see your data. Some large fraction of the adult population consumes alcohol on a fairly regular basis so I imagine society would collapse if it was as harmful on a per capita basis as something like cocaine or heroin.

scythe 9y ago
I think mostly when people cite this they are referring to this study: https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/addiction/news/20101101/alcohol-more-harmful-than-crack-or-heroin#1 https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/addiction/news/20101101/... Alcohol ranks very highly because of it's severe harmful effects on the body. However, behavioral effects tend to be those which make drug users a threat to society. But cocaine's harm is highly dependent on its form. In some pre-Colombian civilizations, as well as in some parts of modern Colombia and Peru, drinking coca tea is/was quite common, and yet life carries on without serious problems. However, smoked and snorted cocaine tend to cause severe behavioral problems in a subset of users, and high doses of cocaine can cause heart attacks. Legalizing coca leaf/tea is an approach I've toyed with to significantly reduce the profit margin of drug trafficking (hopefully) without increasing the use parenteral cocaine too much.
- adriand 9y ago
  A big obvious difference between alcohol and other drugs that also makes it popular is that in moderation it is not all that intoxicating or impairing. Unlike marijuana and mushrooms it is easily possible to have a drink or two and function normally. This accounts for a lot of its social acceptability. Simply put, unless you really overindulge, it doesn’t “fuck you up”. This is also generally true of hard drugs like heroin and cocaine, but here I think the addictive qualities are what makes them a social problem.
  - xtian 9y ago

dsnuh 9y ago

Alcohol is shilled so hard in America. It's disgusting. I honestly don't know why it isn't more strictly regulated. I used to binge drink every few nights when I was younger. Like most people that have drank more than they should have, I have lots of stories of mischief and questionable (at best, sometimes straight illegal) behavior. And these are the stories I used to trade with friends and coworkers. Oh man, they were legendary, right? This is the thing I see most often that just disappoints menow that that's not me anymore and I have realized that alcohol is a terrible drug. The celebration of behavior that is written off to alcohol and thus, totally fine and even funny. Everyone has a story. It's like when you quit smoking and are no longer blind to cigarette butts on the ground everywhere.

Retra 9y ago
One of my friends growing up had a child when he was a teenager, and he and I had a candid talk about this sort of thing once. I pointed out that he was close to his father, who would always tell him stories of all the 'legendary' and reckless mischief he made, and how he's somehow grown up to make the same kinds of mistakes, whereas I never knew my father, and thus didn't have any legendary tales to idolize, instead spending my time trying to figure out who I wanted to be on my own. And I basically said "when you go on to tell your child about all the fun you had causing mischief, make sure you understand that they're probably going to look up to you no matter what stories you tell them. Make sure you tell them ones worth hearing." Off-topic, but this is one of the reason's I get irritated with this "child needs both parents" crap that people spout sometimes. A child needs as many good parents as they can find, and sometimes that number is 1.
- dsnuh 9y ago
  Totally on point. If you are an American, I challenge you to start noticing: "Oh man, I was soooo shitfaced..." "I was so hungover..." "Dude, I don't even know how I made it home..." "Nah, I'm fine to drive..." "I'm sorry, it was the booze talking..." "I need a fuckin' drink after this..." "One for the road..." "I don't give a shit, I need to piss..." "Fuuuuuck it!" Notice the advertising in convenience stores. The standees of scantily clad women holding a frosty bottle of beer. Usually near the Slurpee section. Or maybe they came and switched it out to a football playeror a jolly Santa made out of 12 packs. Tis the season! America needs to wake up. I don't believe in prohibition of any drug, but I believe even in the current system it should be reclassified Schedule I.