4 ms·

This claim keeps popping up. I’ve yet to see it include a citation. Maybe today will be different.

by 1_2__4 9y ago

unfiltered 9y ago
It is called "filtering" and the process is well-established. http://faculty.maxwell.syr.edu/rosenthal/recent%20papers/Is_Filtering_a_Viable_Source_of_Low-Income_Housing_%206_18_13.pdf http://faculty.maxwell.syr.edu/rosenthal/recent%20papers/Is_...
drawnwren 9y ago
The article you're commenting on is literally the citation for this. Here's his citation, http://www.sightline.org/2017/09/21/yes-you-can-build-your-way-to-affordable-housing/ http://www.sightline.org/2017/09/21/yes-you-can-build-your-w...
- IpV8 9y ago
  This kind of mentality that someone's news article counts as a source is poisonous. People read these articles and think that because a few facts have hyperlinks then they must be valid. Half of those links on that page go to other blogs and news site. One even goes to Youtube. Blogs and news agencies don't count as citations to base an argument on. Policy needs to start at peer reviewed research and build up from there.
  - xcryogenicx 9y ago
    > This kind of mentality that someone's news article counts as a source is poisonous. Most underrated comment in the world. This coupled with for-profit journalism and the atrophy of critical thinking is giving rise to nonsense like anti-vax, chemtrails, and flat Earth. In America, the public has been led so astray by both the media and the government about things like basic macronutrients that a recent report found 1/3 of Americans, 100 million people, are diabetic are prediabetic (will have type II diabetes in 5 years). https://www.cdc.gov/diabetes/data/statistics/statistics-report.html https://www.cdc.gov/diabetes/data/statistics/statistics-repo...
  - OrwellianChild 9y ago
    What, other than an article summarizing research, could possibly be provided as citation? Fund me some peer-reviewed research. In the meantime, we'll just have to make policy by flipping a coin, as there is clearly no other standard of knowledge available to us. /s
empath75 9y ago
It’s in this very article. What other outcome could happen?
- throwawaymsft 9y ago
  That new luxury housing makes a city more attractive and induces demand from outside. Adding new roads can make driving more attractive and worsen congestion. Not saying that’s what happens, but a simple supply/demand analysis (ceteris paribus) may not suffice.
  - OrwellianChild 9y ago
    No one has seen fit to build much luxury housing in Cleveland, OH lately, but what exists already (at rock-bottom prices) doesn't seem to be attracting much population from outside... Induced demand is definitely a thing for roads, but that demand is from fixed supply of people. In the roads case, it is counter-intuitive specifically because it causes the same number of people to drive more, on average. That dynamic simply doesn't hold for luxury goods in general or luxury housing in particular. There are effectively no replicable instances of more luxury good = more buyers unless price falls or supply was previously constrained.
    - throwawaymsft 9y ago
      I'd posit it's hard to know what the dynamic would be. Consider certain luxury goods (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veblen_good https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veblen_good) where increasing the price increases the demand. (Conveniently, economists have a model and also a name for things that don't follow the model. The universe can be divided into bananas and non-bananas.) Cleveland isn't a prestigious world-class city attractive to the wealthy, but if new luxury condos in a tier-1 city come online, it may induce demand from wealthy/speculators who would not otherwise have considered that city, or were picking between alternatives. (Investment, signaling/status-seeking, etc.) Treated as an investment vehicle, increasing supply (e.g., having an IPO where no shares existed before) can unlock latent demand (people divert income into that investment and drive up the price). Perhaps housing needs to be modeled as a mix of investment, local demand for shelter, status symbol, tax haven, political baton (keeping existing homeowners above water), etc. Again, not sure how housing actually behaves but it seems complex enough to defy my econ 101 understanding.
ng12 9y ago
How about this: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-03-09/manhattan-rents-decline-for-every-apartment-size-even-studios https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-03-09/manhattan... Virtually all new construction in Manhattan is luxury.
kevinburke 9y ago
here's one from the California Legislative Office about "Helping Low-Income People Afford Housing", the gist is that building more market rate housing reduces displacement: http://www.lao.ca.gov/Publications/Report/3345 http://www.lao.ca.gov/Publications/Report/3345. Other headlines from the report: "Building Less Housing Than People Demand Drives High Housing Costs", "More Private Housing Construction in Coastal Urban Areas", "California Is Building Too Little Housing in Coastal Areas."
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

This claim keeps popping up. I’ve yet to see it include a citation. Maybe today will be different.

by 1_2__4 9y ago

This claim keeps popping up. I’ve yet to see it include a citation. Maybe today will be different.

It is called "filtering" and the process is well-established. http://faculty.maxwell.syr.edu/rosenthal/recent%20papers/Is_Filtering_a_Viable_Source_of_Low-Income_Housing_%206_18_13.pdf http://faculty.maxwell.syr.edu/rosenthal/recent%20papers/Is_...

drawnwren 9y ago

The article you're commenting on is literally the citation for this. Here's his citation, http://www.sightline.org/2017/09/21/yes-you-can-build-your-way-to-affordable-housing/ http://www.sightline.org/2017/09/21/yes-you-can-build-your-w...

IpV8 9y ago
This kind of mentality that someone's news article counts as a source is poisonous. People read these articles and think that because a few facts have hyperlinks then they must be valid. Half of those links on that page go to other blogs and news site. One even goes to Youtube. Blogs and news agencies don't count as citations to base an argument on. Policy needs to start at peer reviewed research and build up from there.
- xcryogenicx 9y ago
  > This kind of mentality that someone's news article counts as a source is poisonous. Most underrated comment in the world. This coupled with for-profit journalism and the atrophy of critical thinking is giving rise to nonsense like anti-vax, chemtrails, and flat Earth. In America, the public has been led so astray by both the media and the government about things like basic macronutrients that a recent report found 1/3 of Americans, 100 million people, are diabetic are prediabetic (will have type II diabetes in 5 years). https://www.cdc.gov/diabetes/data/statistics/statistics-report.html https://www.cdc.gov/diabetes/data/statistics/statistics-repo...
- OrwellianChild 9y ago
  What, other than an article summarizing research, could possibly be provided as citation? Fund me some peer-reviewed research. In the meantime, we'll just have to make policy by flipping a coin, as there is clearly no other standard of knowledge available to us. /s

empath75 9y ago

It’s in this very article. What other outcome could happen?

throwawaymsft 9y ago
That new luxury housing makes a city more attractive and induces demand from outside. Adding new roads can make driving more attractive and worsen congestion. Not saying that’s what happens, but a simple supply/demand analysis (ceteris paribus) may not suffice.
- OrwellianChild 9y ago
  No one has seen fit to build much luxury housing in Cleveland, OH lately, but what exists already (at rock-bottom prices) doesn't seem to be attracting much population from outside... Induced demand is definitely a thing for roads, but that demand is from fixed supply of people. In the roads case, it is counter-intuitive specifically because it causes the same number of people to drive more, on average. That dynamic simply doesn't hold for luxury goods in general or luxury housing in particular. There are effectively no replicable instances of more luxury good = more buyers unless price falls or supply was previously constrained.
  - throwawaymsft 9y ago
    I'd posit it's hard to know what the dynamic would be. Consider certain luxury goods (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veblen_good https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veblen_good) where increasing the price increases the demand. (Conveniently, economists have a model and also a name for things that don't follow the model. The universe can be divided into bananas and non-bananas.) Cleveland isn't a prestigious world-class city attractive to the wealthy, but if new luxury condos in a tier-1 city come online, it may induce demand from wealthy/speculators who would not otherwise have considered that city, or were picking between alternatives. (Investment, signaling/status-seeking, etc.) Treated as an investment vehicle, increasing supply (e.g., having an IPO where no shares existed before) can unlock latent demand (people divert income into that investment and drive up the price). Perhaps housing needs to be modeled as a mix of investment, local demand for shelter, status symbol, tax haven, political baton (keeping existing homeowners above water), etc. Again, not sure how housing actually behaves but it seems complex enough to defy my econ 101 understanding.

ng12 9y ago

How about this: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-03-09/manhattan-rents-decline-for-every-apartment-size-even-studios https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-03-09/manhattan... Virtually all new construction in Manhattan is luxury.

kevinburke 9y ago

here's one from the California Legislative Office about "Helping Low-Income People Afford Housing", the gist is that building more market rate housing reduces displacement: http://www.lao.ca.gov/Publications/Report/3345 http://www.lao.ca.gov/Publications/Report/3345. Other headlines from the report: "Building Less Housing Than People Demand Drives High Housing Costs", "More Private Housing Construction in Coastal Urban Areas", "California Is Building Too Little Housing in Coastal Areas."

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]