11 ms·

Cancer Doctors Cite Risks of Drinking Alcohol

87 points by LiweiZ 9y ago

opportune 9y ago
Alcohol is definitely one of the most harmful drugs out there. In terms of addictiveness, physical side effects (short and long term), and the kind of behavior that people are likely to engage in while under the influence, the only things worse are probably IV painkillers and smoked meth/crack. As a society we need to get our heads out of our asses and challenge our notions of what kind of drug use is and isn't acceptable. It's happening with weed, but unfortunately doesn't seem to be transferring to all/most other illegal drugs that aren't that harmful. It's perfectly fine to tell my boss that I got too drunk on Friday but if I tell him that I took psychedelic mushrooms or my friend's ADHD meds I probably wouldn't be employed much longer. Alcoholism and propensity to addiction run through both sides of my family. Three out of four grandparents alcoholics, three out of four aunts/uncles alcoholics. I have nothing against alcohol use and drink myself, but I have to wonder how successful my family would have been if they lived in a society that hadn't (implicitly, if not explicitly) pressured them to drink, or if they had access to something they could "focus" their addiction on that wouldn't be as harmful as alcohol.
- macspoofing 9y ago
  >It's perfectly fine to tell my boss that I got too drunk on Friday but if I tell him that I took psychedelic mushrooms or my friend's ADHD meds I probably wouldn't be employed much longer. So? I ask seriously - what are you arguing for exactly.
  - opportune 9y ago
    We should gauge drugs based on how harmful they are, from a legislative and social standpoint. There's a lot of misinformation regarding the harmfulness of currently-illegal drugs, just as there is a sort of silence as to exactly how dangerous alcohol is.
    - Buttes 9y ago
      Ya, for example, I've seen people react with surprise when they're told (withdrawal from) heavy drinking can cause life threatening seizures.
  - deleted 9y ago
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  - tree_of_item 9y ago
    Perhaps they're arguing for the ability to share information about their psychedelic use without social sanctions.
    - macspoofing 9y ago
      I'll restate your point: 'they're arguing for the ability to share information about their ILLEGAL drug use without social sanctions.' That's the difference between alcohol and LSD.
      - tree_of_item 9y ago
        Why is it illegal? Alcohol is vastly more dangerous than LSD. That's the real difference, so it's curious that the legality is the other way around.
- maxxxxx 9y ago
  There was a thing on BBC where they rated drugs by their danger. If I remember correctly, nicotine and alcohol were way up the list, much higher than most illegal drugs.
  - chiefalchemist 9y ago
    Well, the impact is greater because the availability is much wider. Social acceptance can make most any evil the norn. Just look at obesity/diabetes. Now there's a killer no one REALLY wants to talk about.
    - gozur88 9y ago
      People talk about obesity all the time. The problem is nobody knows what to do about it.
      - maxxxxx 9y ago
        I think we know what to do but nobody has the courage to do something.
        gozur88 9y ago
        Oh? What should we do?
        maxxxxx 9y ago
        Stop subsidizing junk food. Stop advertising junk food to children (if it's not ok for children to hear he f word it's also not ok to for them to hear about junk food). Subsidize healthy foods. Tax sugary drinks. Do you want more?
        taneq 9y ago
        Also stop normalising excessive portion sizes.
- conanbatt 9y ago
  There is a case to do policy that relates to dealing with addiction and public health, but I garner immediate rejection at the idea that the State should devise policy with the goals of affecting what people should or should not do with themselves. The 'war on crime' is a modern example of what happens to both consumers and providers when the State gets between them. Edit: I meant 'War on drugs'.
  - opportune 9y ago
    I agree completely, but in reality people will just think "lol he wants to make cocaine legal, what a whack job." The war on drugs is entirely contrary to the concept of personal liberty. In fact if you read up on the history of the war on drugs, usually it wasn't even motivated by public health. Alcohol was first made illegal largely because of anti-catholic and anti-Irish sentiments (also, interestingly, as part of the women's movement!). Marijuana was made illegal because it was associated with Mexicans. Psychedelics were cracked down on because of the hippies. Crack possession carried harsher penalties than cocaine because it was used by poor black people.
- chiefalchemist 9y ago
  IDK but more than one addict has told me their habit was a symptom of a deeper (emotional?) ill. So we could ban alcohol but then what? Would that solve a problem or will something else just take its place?
  - opportune 9y ago
    It definitely is, but that doesn't mean that you can't be more likely to develop an addiction as a response to that deeper ill. For example, suppose persons A and B are both very stressed due to work and are worried about their marriages falling apart. Individually each is definitely more likely to become an alcoholic than if they didn't have those problems. However, if person B has addictive genetics, that may mean a 40% chance of developing alcoholism (obviously this is more complicated than a simple probability) vs. person A's 5% chance. I'm not advocating banning alcohol at all, I would actually be very opposed to that. I just think it shouldn't be the default drug of choice considering how harmful it is. Now, I have no idea how to change that, but ACCURATE and UNDERSTANDING (i.e. non-adversarial) drug education would be a good place to start. Basically I see drug education now as analogous to abstinence-only sex education. Instead of spreading scientific information about dangers, side effects, etc. it just focuses on fear-mongering and misinformation. We currently view a "drug-user" (someone who uses drugs, not necessarily an addict) the way people saw "sluts" not so long ago.
  - leggomylibro 9y ago
    Most addictions, or at least vice dependencies, are probably symptoms of deeper emotional issues. People wouldn't try to knock themselves out or change how they perceived the world if they were happy with how it was at the moment. Sure, drugs like alcohol and heroin can introduce severe physical dependencies with consistent use, but I don't think many people start slamming whisky every night on a whim. So okay, fair enough, regulating alcohol more strictly won't solve the malaise of our zeitgeist, but it might steer people towards other vices that are less likely to seriously hurt them or others in the short or long term. Like...well, that's probably a pretty short list right now, but if we were more open-minded as a society about more victimless vices, that might change.
  - karmapolic 9y ago
- brightsize 9y ago
  >It's perfectly fine to tell my boss that I got too drunk on Friday Hell if you worked at a startup, you and your boss might have both gotten drunk at the office together after raiding the "fully-stocked beer cooler". The in-office beer was part of the recruitment strategy of the company after all. Bottoms-up! I'm a beer-drinker but I still find it astonishing that some startups are providing an addictive and risky drug to employees as a perk.
  - deleted 9y ago
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  - microcolonel 9y ago
    Beer is wonderful after a day of hard work, it is addictive to alcoholics, and risky in large doses. I prefer to buy it myself though, I don't really approve of these things as company perks, since you know it is really meant to bargain down salaries.
    - zenlikethat 9y ago
      That certainly does happen a lot but in cases where people are paid fairly having free (good) booze available for responsible drinking is also pretty great.
      - microcolonel 9y ago
        > (good) Heheh, yeah, that's the other hard part. I've seen it go two bad directions. On one side, the cheapskates buy the beer, and they buy the stuff that's expensive enough to get something better, but which is not refreshing to nurse one or two of after some crunch time work. On the other side, the beer snobs take hold, and most of the beer becomes too bitter or too sour for most people's tastes, and again not very refreshing.
- munificent 9y ago
  > Alcohol is definitely one of the most harmful drugs out there. What is your definition of "harmful" here? Is it just total amount of harm caused, or total harm divided by number of users? If the former, sure, but I think that just reflects how hugely popular it is. If the latter, I'd like to see your data. Some large fraction of the adult population consumes alcohol on a fairly regular basis so I imagine society would collapse if it was as harmful on a per capita basis as something like cocaine or heroin.
  - scythe 9y ago
    I think mostly when people cite this they are referring to this study: https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/addiction/news/20101101/alcohol-more-harmful-than-crack-or-heroin#1 https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/addiction/news/20101101/... Alcohol ranks very highly because of it's severe harmful effects on the body. However, behavioral effects tend to be those which make drug users a threat to society. But cocaine's harm is highly dependent on its form. In some pre-Colombian civilizations, as well as in some parts of modern Colombia and Peru, drinking coca tea is/was quite common, and yet life carries on without serious problems. However, smoked and snorted cocaine tend to cause severe behavioral problems in a subset of users, and high doses of cocaine can cause heart attacks. Legalizing coca leaf/tea is an approach I've toyed with to significantly reduce the profit margin of drug trafficking (hopefully) without increasing the use parenteral cocaine too much.
    - adriand 9y ago
      A big obvious difference between alcohol and other drugs that also makes it popular is that in moderation it is not all that intoxicating or impairing. Unlike marijuana and mushrooms it is easily possible to have a drink or two and function normally. This accounts for a lot of its social acceptability. Simply put, unless you really overindulge, it doesn’t “fuck you up”. This is also generally true of hard drugs like heroin and cocaine, but here I think the addictive qualities are what makes them a social problem.
      - xtian 9y ago
- dsnuh 9y ago
  Alcohol is shilled so hard in America. It's disgusting. I honestly don't know why it isn't more strictly regulated. I used to binge drink every few nights when I was younger. Like most people that have drank more than they should have, I have lots of stories of mischief and questionable (at best, sometimes straight illegal) behavior. And these are the stories I used to trade with friends and coworkers. Oh man, they were legendary, right? This is the thing I see most often that just disappoints menow that that's not me anymore and I have realized that alcohol is a terrible drug. The celebration of behavior that is written off to alcohol and thus, totally fine and even funny. Everyone has a story. It's like when you quit smoking and are no longer blind to cigarette butts on the ground everywhere.
  - Retra 9y ago
    One of my friends growing up had a child when he was a teenager, and he and I had a candid talk about this sort of thing once. I pointed out that he was close to his father, who would always tell him stories of all the 'legendary' and reckless mischief he made, and how he's somehow grown up to make the same kinds of mistakes, whereas I never knew my father, and thus didn't have any legendary tales to idolize, instead spending my time trying to figure out who I wanted to be on my own. And I basically said "when you go on to tell your child about all the fun you had causing mischief, make sure you understand that they're probably going to look up to you no matter what stories you tell them. Make sure you tell them ones worth hearing." Off-topic, but this is one of the reason's I get irritated with this "child needs both parents" crap that people spout sometimes. A child needs as many good parents as they can find, and sometimes that number is 1.
    - dsnuh 9y ago
      Totally on point. If you are an American, I challenge you to start noticing: "Oh man, I was soooo shitfaced..." "I was so hungover..." "Dude, I don't even know how I made it home..." "Nah, I'm fine to drive..." "I'm sorry, it was the booze talking..." "I need a fuckin' drink after this..." "One for the road..." "I don't give a shit, I need to piss..." "Fuuuuuck it!" Notice the advertising in convenience stores. The standees of scantily clad women holding a frosty bottle of beer. Usually near the Slurpee section. Or maybe they came and switched it out to a football playeror a jolly Santa made out of 12 packs. Tis the season! America needs to wake up. I don't believe in prohibition of any drug, but I believe even in the current system it should be reclassified Schedule I.
hyperbovine 9y ago
It would be better to know at what age this increases risk. If a lifetime spent drinking delicious, delicious red wine ends up taking me out 5yrs before Alzheimer's would, so be it.
- taneq 9y ago
  Exactly. It's not just about the cost, it's about the tradeoff.
- dsnuh 9y ago
  How old are you? I'm just a touch over 40 and even at this age the poignancy of life really starts to reveal itself to you. You would trade 5 years of your life for being able to drink wine? Because it's that delicious, right? Sorry, but this is either hyperbole to the point of silliness or you have no idea the value of your life.
  - batiudrami 9y ago
    It depends on what you value. a lot of my life's highlights are those spent over beers with my friends. I'm unlikely to have kids. The way I've seen my relatives struggle in the later period of their lives doesn't appeal to me at all. But you do have a decade on me and I am certain that adds some perspective. I am much wiser than I was when I was at 20. And I am certainly not pretending that it isn't doing damage.
    - dsnuh 9y ago
      My apologies if that came off too aggressively. It is a subject that I get emotional about due to events in my own life and the lives of my loved ones that were absolutely alcohol related. Thinking back 10 years, I would have said exactly the same thing (about whisky or tobacco), so I see where you are coming from. I'm sure it seems hypocritical for me to be so anti-alcohol after my earlier behaviors. I think having kids made me open my eyes to it. I wasn't a heavy drinker by that time, but there were still a number of Sundays where "Daddy really feels sick today, baby. Is it okay if I just lay down and you watch a show?". It's just no longer conducive to constructive living in my view now. To each their own, YMMV, etc.
deleted 9y ago
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Buttes 9y ago
Wasn't this connection pretty well known? Colon cancer and all that. Plus like cmon its no secret alcohol os tough on your body, cancer is probably the least of your worries.
chiefalchemist 9y ago
Cause or correlation? Given the (bad) dietary and lifestyle habits of the majority of people, it's too easy to attribute something to X when in fact it's likely Y or Z. Full disclosure: I'm half way through Grain Brain (having read Wheat Belly a couple years ago) and the current "ideal diet" is anything but.
Jeema101 9y ago
Of course alcohol increases the risk of some cancers - it's a known carcinogen. On top of that it can be highly addictive. On the other hand, though, it's something a lot of people enjoy as as social lubricant, and there is also the evidence that drinking in moderation lowers the risk of heart disease. So like many things in life the question is whether the positive outweighs the negative - that of course depends largely on your own risk factors for cancer, heart disease, and, yes... alcoholism.
- carbocation 9y ago
  The best evidence we have suggests that there is no safe amount of alcohol from the standpoint of heart disease[1]. The data supporting the safety (or even benefit) of a small amount of alcohol came from observational studies, which are often heavily confounded. This study used Mendelian randomization (MR) to get around that limitation. MR can be confounded by pleiotropy, but this study (which suggests harm from alcohol intake) is still higher quality evidence than the observational studies done previously. 1 = http://www.bmj.com/content/349/bmj.g4164 http://www.bmj.com/content/349/bmj.g4164
tzaman 9y ago
Slightly sarcastic, but on point: Doctors say a glass of red wine per day is good for your blood. But now, they also say it'll increase chances of getting cancer. So I guess I need to choose between these two. Too much of anything is a poison.
- amorphid 9y ago
  There's no protection from being a moron. Is drinking a glass of wine a day moronic? Maybe. Is drinking wine like it was water moronic. Yup.
- carbocation 9y ago
  See my other post here [1], but alcohol probably isn't good for your cardiovascular system. 1 = https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15666791 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15666791
- ambivalents 9y ago
  On balance, seems better to avoid something that is actively bad for you than seek out something that is actively good for you. Other substances/behaviors may confer the same purported benefit without the same risk.
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microcolonel 9y ago
Most Americans drink very little, it seems. Being in the top quintile means something like one serving per day, about a third of Americans abstain entirely.
reustle 9y ago
As someone who has never drank and often has discussions with people about alcohol, it's amusing to see how many people go straight to defending their choice to drink alcohol in this thread.
- betterthanelse 9y ago
  Glad you feel like you're better than everyone else matey. Your post reeks of smug, btw.
  - bob_theslob646 9y ago
    Or maybe he/she was a person who was always treated as an outcast for not drinking when society( in the US) constantly advertises that in order to have a good time, it involves/should involve alcohol. Did you ever think of that before you shot from the hip? ("Alcohol ads typically associate a brand with cool, sexy people and a fun activity.")[https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0391-alcohol-advertising https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0391-alcohol-advertisi...]
    - in_cahoots 9y ago
      Cool, sexy, and fun summarizes the goal of basically all advertising. I don’t think alcohol is unique here.
  - deleted 9y ago
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- jacobolus 9y ago
  Low doses of alcohol are a very effective anxiolytic medicine for many people. I don’t drink too much, but when I’m extremely stressed out (e.g. when enraged, extremely scared, in shock, etc. to the point of being unable to use higher brain function, being ready to fight or flee, etc.), one drink goes incredibly far toward taking the edge off, reducing both mental and physical symptoms of anxiety, and bringing out calm, rational thinking. Alcohol also helps a lot of people with social awkwardness/fears, which is why so many social meeting places (especially places where strangers meet) serve alcohol. It serves a real useful function there, helping people to be more trusting and open. Obviously when people drink more than they can handle, it also can have severe negative side effects, and can cause people to have emotional breakdowns, lose their inhibitions to the point of idiocy, lose their basic coordination, suffer memory loss, etc. But the same is true for many medicines/foods/drugs. Many problematic uses of alcohol are related to people’s other severe emotional problems (post-traumatic stress, ongoing abuse at home or work, working through the death of someone close or a bad breakup, extreme loneliness, depression, etc.). If self-medicating with large doses of alcohol was not an option, it’s not clear what alternatives they would turn to or whether those would be preferable. The real lesson IMO is that we need much better social support and mental healthcare in this country.
dr_ 9y ago
The N.Y. Times once reported on the lifespans of the people of Ikaria, who apparently have the longest recorded lifespans, as a group, in the world. Their diet includes moderate amounts of wine. “Wine — in moderation — had been shown to be good for you if consumed as part of a Mediterranean diet, because it prompts the body to absorb more flavonoids, a type of antioxidant” Not a medical research study, but I wonder how oncologists would reconcile their recommendations with reports such as this. Presumably the studies they have reviewed control for other factors such as diet and lifestyle. (Original article: https://mobile.nytimes.com/2012/10/28/magazine/the-island-where-people-forget-to-die.html https://mobile.nytimes.com/2012/10/28/magazine/the-island-wh...)
- gruez 9y ago
  sure, it might be the alcohol in the wine, or it could be the grape itself. has there been a study that compared wine, unfermented wine, dealcoholized wine, grape juice, and grape juice + ethanol?
  - ranit 9y ago
    >> unfermented wine Is there such a thing?
    - berbec 9y ago
      Grape juice? I'm not trying to be snarling, I actually am wondering something else is added to grapes to make it pre-wine?
      - ranit 9y ago
        GP already listed it as a separate entity: ..., unfermented wine, dealcoholized wine, grape juice, ... so, it is not. >> ... wondering something else is added to grapes to make it pre-wine? I am really asking, because I don't know, and like you, would like to find out: what is this process that would "unferment" wine. If GP is not just trowing words around he/she should know.
banachtarski 9y ago
Did they demonstrate that there was a causative and not correlative effect being observed?
- mikestew 9y ago
  I thought the article was pretty clear. From your reading of the article, which part is confusing on this point?
ljasdfasdfsdl 9y ago
The narrative seems to go from drinking a glass of wine daily is healthy to significantly carcinogenic. The media has no shame in its abuse & manipulation of its consumers.
archagon 9y ago
I have read these studies before, and they’ve compelled me to drop my beer drinking down to about 1.2 standard drinks a day. Works for me: still get to drink, still get to pop a bomber of the heavy stuff once a week, and have more incentive to explore low-ABV styles like gueuze and lager. I haven’t found any studies at all that describe the risks of alcohol consumption for men at 1 standard drink per day — which isn’t to say that the risks don’t exist, but they’re probably pretty low. However, the article implies that the size of a standard drink as 10g, whereas almost everywhere else I’ve heard it as 14g. So which is it?
known 9y ago
Alcoholic should periodically go for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha-fetoprotein https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha-fetoprotein diagnosis

87 points by LiweiZ 9y ago

Alcohol is definitely one of the most harmful drugs out there. In terms of addictiveness, physical side effects (short and long term), and the kind of behavior that people are likely to engage in while under the influence, the only things worse are probably IV painkillers and smoked meth/crack. As a society we need to get our heads out of our asses and challenge our notions of what kind of drug use is and isn't acceptable. It's happening with weed, but unfortunately doesn't seem to be transferring to all/most other illegal drugs that aren't that harmful. It's perfectly fine to tell my boss that I got too drunk on Friday but if I tell him that I took psychedelic mushrooms or my friend's ADHD meds I probably wouldn't be employed much longer. Alcoholism and propensity to addiction run through both sides of my family. Three out of four grandparents alcoholics, three out of four aunts/uncles alcoholics. I have nothing against alcohol use and drink myself, but I have to wonder how successful my family would have been if they lived in a society that hadn't (implicitly, if not explicitly) pressured them to drink, or if they had access to something they could "focus" their addiction on that wouldn't be as harmful as alcohol.

macspoofing 9y ago
>It's perfectly fine to tell my boss that I got too drunk on Friday but if I tell him that I took psychedelic mushrooms or my friend's ADHD meds I probably wouldn't be employed much longer. So? I ask seriously - what are you arguing for exactly.
- opportune 9y ago
  We should gauge drugs based on how harmful they are, from a legislative and social standpoint. There's a lot of misinformation regarding the harmfulness of currently-illegal drugs, just as there is a sort of silence as to exactly how dangerous alcohol is.
  - Buttes 9y ago
    Ya, for example, I've seen people react with surprise when they're told (withdrawal from) heavy drinking can cause life threatening seizures.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- tree_of_item 9y ago
  Perhaps they're arguing for the ability to share information about their psychedelic use without social sanctions.
  - macspoofing 9y ago
    I'll restate your point: 'they're arguing for the ability to share information about their ILLEGAL drug use without social sanctions.' That's the difference between alcohol and LSD.
    - tree_of_item 9y ago
      Why is it illegal? Alcohol is vastly more dangerous than LSD. That's the real difference, so it's curious that the legality is the other way around.
maxxxxx 9y ago
There was a thing on BBC where they rated drugs by their danger. If I remember correctly, nicotine and alcohol were way up the list, much higher than most illegal drugs.
- chiefalchemist 9y ago
  Well, the impact is greater because the availability is much wider. Social acceptance can make most any evil the norn. Just look at obesity/diabetes. Now there's a killer no one REALLY wants to talk about.
  - gozur88 9y ago
    People talk about obesity all the time. The problem is nobody knows what to do about it.
    - maxxxxx 9y ago
      I think we know what to do but nobody has the courage to do something.
      - gozur88 9y ago
        Oh? What should we do?
        maxxxxx 9y ago
        Stop subsidizing junk food. Stop advertising junk food to children (if it's not ok for children to hear he f word it's also not ok to for them to hear about junk food). Subsidize healthy foods. Tax sugary drinks. Do you want more?
        taneq 9y ago
        Also stop normalising excessive portion sizes.
conanbatt 9y ago
There is a case to do policy that relates to dealing with addiction and public health, but I garner immediate rejection at the idea that the State should devise policy with the goals of affecting what people should or should not do with themselves. The 'war on crime' is a modern example of what happens to both consumers and providers when the State gets between them. Edit: I meant 'War on drugs'.
- opportune 9y ago
  I agree completely, but in reality people will just think "lol he wants to make cocaine legal, what a whack job." The war on drugs is entirely contrary to the concept of personal liberty. In fact if you read up on the history of the war on drugs, usually it wasn't even motivated by public health. Alcohol was first made illegal largely because of anti-catholic and anti-Irish sentiments (also, interestingly, as part of the women's movement!). Marijuana was made illegal because it was associated with Mexicans. Psychedelics were cracked down on because of the hippies. Crack possession carried harsher penalties than cocaine because it was used by poor black people.
chiefalchemist 9y ago
IDK but more than one addict has told me their habit was a symptom of a deeper (emotional?) ill. So we could ban alcohol but then what? Would that solve a problem or will something else just take its place?
- opportune 9y ago
  It definitely is, but that doesn't mean that you can't be more likely to develop an addiction as a response to that deeper ill. For example, suppose persons A and B are both very stressed due to work and are worried about their marriages falling apart. Individually each is definitely more likely to become an alcoholic than if they didn't have those problems. However, if person B has addictive genetics, that may mean a 40% chance of developing alcoholism (obviously this is more complicated than a simple probability) vs. person A's 5% chance. I'm not advocating banning alcohol at all, I would actually be very opposed to that. I just think it shouldn't be the default drug of choice considering how harmful it is. Now, I have no idea how to change that, but ACCURATE and UNDERSTANDING (i.e. non-adversarial) drug education would be a good place to start. Basically I see drug education now as analogous to abstinence-only sex education. Instead of spreading scientific information about dangers, side effects, etc. it just focuses on fear-mongering and misinformation. We currently view a "drug-user" (someone who uses drugs, not necessarily an addict) the way people saw "sluts" not so long ago.
- leggomylibro 9y ago
  Most addictions, or at least vice dependencies, are probably symptoms of deeper emotional issues. People wouldn't try to knock themselves out or change how they perceived the world if they were happy with how it was at the moment. Sure, drugs like alcohol and heroin can introduce severe physical dependencies with consistent use, but I don't think many people start slamming whisky every night on a whim. So okay, fair enough, regulating alcohol more strictly won't solve the malaise of our zeitgeist, but it might steer people towards other vices that are less likely to seriously hurt them or others in the short or long term. Like...well, that's probably a pretty short list right now, but if we were more open-minded as a society about more victimless vices, that might change.
- karmapolic 9y ago
brightsize 9y ago
>It's perfectly fine to tell my boss that I got too drunk on Friday Hell if you worked at a startup, you and your boss might have both gotten drunk at the office together after raiding the "fully-stocked beer cooler". The in-office beer was part of the recruitment strategy of the company after all. Bottoms-up! I'm a beer-drinker but I still find it astonishing that some startups are providing an addictive and risky drug to employees as a perk.
- deleted 9y ago
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- microcolonel 9y ago
  Beer is wonderful after a day of hard work, it is addictive to alcoholics, and risky in large doses. I prefer to buy it myself though, I don't really approve of these things as company perks, since you know it is really meant to bargain down salaries.
  - zenlikethat 9y ago
    That certainly does happen a lot but in cases where people are paid fairly having free (good) booze available for responsible drinking is also pretty great.
    - microcolonel 9y ago
      > (good) Heheh, yeah, that's the other hard part. I've seen it go two bad directions. On one side, the cheapskates buy the beer, and they buy the stuff that's expensive enough to get something better, but which is not refreshing to nurse one or two of after some crunch time work. On the other side, the beer snobs take hold, and most of the beer becomes too bitter or too sour for most people's tastes, and again not very refreshing.
munificent 9y ago
> Alcohol is definitely one of the most harmful drugs out there. What is your definition of "harmful" here? Is it just total amount of harm caused, or total harm divided by number of users? If the former, sure, but I think that just reflects how hugely popular it is. If the latter, I'd like to see your data. Some large fraction of the adult population consumes alcohol on a fairly regular basis so I imagine society would collapse if it was as harmful on a per capita basis as something like cocaine or heroin.
- scythe 9y ago
  I think mostly when people cite this they are referring to this study: https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/addiction/news/20101101/alcohol-more-harmful-than-crack-or-heroin#1 https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/addiction/news/20101101/... Alcohol ranks very highly because of it's severe harmful effects on the body. However, behavioral effects tend to be those which make drug users a threat to society. But cocaine's harm is highly dependent on its form. In some pre-Colombian civilizations, as well as in some parts of modern Colombia and Peru, drinking coca tea is/was quite common, and yet life carries on without serious problems. However, smoked and snorted cocaine tend to cause severe behavioral problems in a subset of users, and high doses of cocaine can cause heart attacks. Legalizing coca leaf/tea is an approach I've toyed with to significantly reduce the profit margin of drug trafficking (hopefully) without increasing the use parenteral cocaine too much.
  - adriand 9y ago
    A big obvious difference between alcohol and other drugs that also makes it popular is that in moderation it is not all that intoxicating or impairing. Unlike marijuana and mushrooms it is easily possible to have a drink or two and function normally. This accounts for a lot of its social acceptability. Simply put, unless you really overindulge, it doesn’t “fuck you up”. This is also generally true of hard drugs like heroin and cocaine, but here I think the addictive qualities are what makes them a social problem.
    - xtian 9y ago
dsnuh 9y ago
Alcohol is shilled so hard in America. It's disgusting. I honestly don't know why it isn't more strictly regulated. I used to binge drink every few nights when I was younger. Like most people that have drank more than they should have, I have lots of stories of mischief and questionable (at best, sometimes straight illegal) behavior. And these are the stories I used to trade with friends and coworkers. Oh man, they were legendary, right? This is the thing I see most often that just disappoints menow that that's not me anymore and I have realized that alcohol is a terrible drug. The celebration of behavior that is written off to alcohol and thus, totally fine and even funny. Everyone has a story. It's like when you quit smoking and are no longer blind to cigarette butts on the ground everywhere.
- Retra 9y ago
  One of my friends growing up had a child when he was a teenager, and he and I had a candid talk about this sort of thing once. I pointed out that he was close to his father, who would always tell him stories of all the 'legendary' and reckless mischief he made, and how he's somehow grown up to make the same kinds of mistakes, whereas I never knew my father, and thus didn't have any legendary tales to idolize, instead spending my time trying to figure out who I wanted to be on my own. And I basically said "when you go on to tell your child about all the fun you had causing mischief, make sure you understand that they're probably going to look up to you no matter what stories you tell them. Make sure you tell them ones worth hearing." Off-topic, but this is one of the reason's I get irritated with this "child needs both parents" crap that people spout sometimes. A child needs as many good parents as they can find, and sometimes that number is 1.
  - dsnuh 9y ago
    Totally on point. If you are an American, I challenge you to start noticing: "Oh man, I was soooo shitfaced..." "I was so hungover..." "Dude, I don't even know how I made it home..." "Nah, I'm fine to drive..." "I'm sorry, it was the booze talking..." "I need a fuckin' drink after this..." "One for the road..." "I don't give a shit, I need to piss..." "Fuuuuuck it!" Notice the advertising in convenience stores. The standees of scantily clad women holding a frosty bottle of beer. Usually near the Slurpee section. Or maybe they came and switched it out to a football playeror a jolly Santa made out of 12 packs. Tis the season! America needs to wake up. I don't believe in prohibition of any drug, but I believe even in the current system it should be reclassified Schedule I.

hyperbovine 9y ago

It would be better to know at what age this increases risk. If a lifetime spent drinking delicious, delicious red wine ends up taking me out 5yrs before Alzheimer's would, so be it.

taneq 9y ago
Exactly. It's not just about the cost, it's about the tradeoff.
dsnuh 9y ago
How old are you? I'm just a touch over 40 and even at this age the poignancy of life really starts to reveal itself to you. You would trade 5 years of your life for being able to drink wine? Because it's that delicious, right? Sorry, but this is either hyperbole to the point of silliness or you have no idea the value of your life.
- batiudrami 9y ago
  It depends on what you value. a lot of my life's highlights are those spent over beers with my friends. I'm unlikely to have kids. The way I've seen my relatives struggle in the later period of their lives doesn't appeal to me at all. But you do have a decade on me and I am certain that adds some perspective. I am much wiser than I was when I was at 20. And I am certainly not pretending that it isn't doing damage.
  - dsnuh 9y ago
    My apologies if that came off too aggressively. It is a subject that I get emotional about due to events in my own life and the lives of my loved ones that were absolutely alcohol related. Thinking back 10 years, I would have said exactly the same thing (about whisky or tobacco), so I see where you are coming from. I'm sure it seems hypocritical for me to be so anti-alcohol after my earlier behaviors. I think having kids made me open my eyes to it. I wasn't a heavy drinker by that time, but there were still a number of Sundays where "Daddy really feels sick today, baby. Is it okay if I just lay down and you watch a show?". It's just no longer conducive to constructive living in my view now. To each their own, YMMV, etc.

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Buttes 9y ago

Wasn't this connection pretty well known? Colon cancer and all that. Plus like cmon its no secret alcohol os tough on your body, cancer is probably the least of your worries.

chiefalchemist 9y ago

Cause or correlation? Given the (bad) dietary and lifestyle habits of the majority of people, it's too easy to attribute something to X when in fact it's likely Y or Z. Full disclosure: I'm half way through Grain Brain (having read Wheat Belly a couple years ago) and the current "ideal diet" is anything but.

Jeema101 9y ago

Of course alcohol increases the risk of some cancers - it's a known carcinogen. On top of that it can be highly addictive. On the other hand, though, it's something a lot of people enjoy as as social lubricant, and there is also the evidence that drinking in moderation lowers the risk of heart disease. So like many things in life the question is whether the positive outweighs the negative - that of course depends largely on your own risk factors for cancer, heart disease, and, yes... alcoholism.

carbocation 9y ago
The best evidence we have suggests that there is no safe amount of alcohol from the standpoint of heart disease[1]. The data supporting the safety (or even benefit) of a small amount of alcohol came from observational studies, which are often heavily confounded. This study used Mendelian randomization (MR) to get around that limitation. MR can be confounded by pleiotropy, but this study (which suggests harm from alcohol intake) is still higher quality evidence than the observational studies done previously. 1 = http://www.bmj.com/content/349/bmj.g4164 http://www.bmj.com/content/349/bmj.g4164

tzaman 9y ago

Slightly sarcastic, but on point: Doctors say a glass of red wine per day is good for your blood. But now, they also say it'll increase chances of getting cancer. So I guess I need to choose between these two. Too much of anything is a poison.

amorphid 9y ago
There's no protection from being a moron. Is drinking a glass of wine a day moronic? Maybe. Is drinking wine like it was water moronic. Yup.
carbocation 9y ago
See my other post here [1], but alcohol probably isn't good for your cardiovascular system. 1 = https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15666791 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15666791
ambivalents 9y ago
On balance, seems better to avoid something that is actively bad for you than seek out something that is actively good for you. Other substances/behaviors may confer the same purported benefit without the same risk.

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microcolonel 9y ago

Most Americans drink very little, it seems. Being in the top quintile means something like one serving per day, about a third of Americans abstain entirely.

reustle 9y ago

As someone who has never drank and often has discussions with people about alcohol, it's amusing to see how many people go straight to defending their choice to drink alcohol in this thread.

betterthanelse 9y ago
Glad you feel like you're better than everyone else matey. Your post reeks of smug, btw.
- bob_theslob646 9y ago
  Or maybe he/she was a person who was always treated as an outcast for not drinking when society( in the US) constantly advertises that in order to have a good time, it involves/should involve alcohol. Did you ever think of that before you shot from the hip? ("Alcohol ads typically associate a brand with cool, sexy people and a fun activity.")[https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0391-alcohol-advertising https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0391-alcohol-advertisi...]
  - in_cahoots 9y ago
    Cool, sexy, and fun summarizes the goal of basically all advertising. I don’t think alcohol is unique here.
- deleted 9y ago
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jacobolus 9y ago
Low doses of alcohol are a very effective anxiolytic medicine for many people. I don’t drink too much, but when I’m extremely stressed out (e.g. when enraged, extremely scared, in shock, etc. to the point of being unable to use higher brain function, being ready to fight or flee, etc.), one drink goes incredibly far toward taking the edge off, reducing both mental and physical symptoms of anxiety, and bringing out calm, rational thinking. Alcohol also helps a lot of people with social awkwardness/fears, which is why so many social meeting places (especially places where strangers meet) serve alcohol. It serves a real useful function there, helping people to be more trusting and open. Obviously when people drink more than they can handle, it also can have severe negative side effects, and can cause people to have emotional breakdowns, lose their inhibitions to the point of idiocy, lose their basic coordination, suffer memory loss, etc. But the same is true for many medicines/foods/drugs. Many problematic uses of alcohol are related to people’s other severe emotional problems (post-traumatic stress, ongoing abuse at home or work, working through the death of someone close or a bad breakup, extreme loneliness, depression, etc.). If self-medicating with large doses of alcohol was not an option, it’s not clear what alternatives they would turn to or whether those would be preferable. The real lesson IMO is that we need much better social support and mental healthcare in this country.

dr_ 9y ago

The N.Y. Times once reported on the lifespans of the people of Ikaria, who apparently have the longest recorded lifespans, as a group, in the world. Their diet includes moderate amounts of wine. “Wine — in moderation — had been shown to be good for you if consumed as part of a Mediterranean diet, because it prompts the body to absorb more flavonoids, a type of antioxidant” Not a medical research study, but I wonder how oncologists would reconcile their recommendations with reports such as this. Presumably the studies they have reviewed control for other factors such as diet and lifestyle. (Original article: https://mobile.nytimes.com/2012/10/28/magazine/the-island-where-people-forget-to-die.html https://mobile.nytimes.com/2012/10/28/magazine/the-island-wh...)

gruez 9y ago
sure, it might be the alcohol in the wine, or it could be the grape itself. has there been a study that compared wine, unfermented wine, dealcoholized wine, grape juice, and grape juice + ethanol?
- ranit 9y ago
  >> unfermented wine Is there such a thing?
  - berbec 9y ago
    Grape juice? I'm not trying to be snarling, I actually am wondering something else is added to grapes to make it pre-wine?
    - ranit 9y ago
      GP already listed it as a separate entity: ..., unfermented wine, dealcoholized wine, grape juice, ... so, it is not. >> ... wondering something else is added to grapes to make it pre-wine? I am really asking, because I don't know, and like you, would like to find out: what is this process that would "unferment" wine. If GP is not just trowing words around he/she should know.

banachtarski 9y ago

Did they demonstrate that there was a causative and not correlative effect being observed?

mikestew 9y ago
I thought the article was pretty clear. From your reading of the article, which part is confusing on this point?

ljasdfasdfsdl 9y ago

The narrative seems to go from drinking a glass of wine daily is healthy to significantly carcinogenic. The media has no shame in its abuse & manipulation of its consumers.

archagon 9y ago

I have read these studies before, and they’ve compelled me to drop my beer drinking down to about 1.2 standard drinks a day. Works for me: still get to drink, still get to pop a bomber of the heavy stuff once a week, and have more incentive to explore low-ABV styles like gueuze and lager. I haven’t found any studies at all that describe the risks of alcohol consumption for men at 1 standard drink per day — which isn’t to say that the risks don’t exist, but they’re probably pretty low. However, the article implies that the size of a standard drink as 10g, whereas almost everywhere else I’ve heard it as 14g. So which is it?

known 9y ago

Alcoholic should periodically go for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha-fetoprotein https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha-fetoprotein diagnosis