5 ms·

I'd love (love!) for the answer to all questions about addiction to be "suffer your own consequences," but the US exists as a massive welfare state where intell

by kolbe 9y ago

I'd love (love!) for the answer to all questions about addiction to be "suffer your own consequences," but the US exists as a massive welfare state where intelligent and conscientious citizens should try to ensure that the investments they're making in the lower classes are going to better use than heroin and acting as proxy votes to foreign regimes in US elections. But we're not even close to a libertarian enough nation to just ignore the problems that corporations create for our citizens, even if those problems could be avoided by personal responsibility. And "soul searching" is waaaay too far up Maslow's hierarchy for most US citizens to even start considering.

MsMowz 9y ago
We don't have a welfare state. We probably have fewer social services than any other industrialized country.
- pixl97 9y ago
  >fewer social services than any other industrialized country. Conversely your own argument can simply be stated as "We have a smaller welfare state than most other industrialized countries" So I don't think you successfully argued that we don't have a welfare state at all.
  - s73ver_ 9y ago
    The existence of welfare does not a welfare state make.
    - pixl97 9y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_state https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_state By the technical definition, yea, it does seem to.
  - MsMowz 9y ago
    If any state that isn't just police and a military counts as a welfare state, then I don't think that's a useful definition of welfare state.
wcarron 9y ago
What are you even talking about? Welfare state?? What welfare? You mean the access to women's health clinics like planned parenthood that has been gutted and made more difficult to obtain by republicans? Or perhaps you mean the "abundance" of low income housing? Or the meager percentage of the budget that goes to food stamps (which, somehow, is viewed as an egregious offense despite rampant military budget overruns)? Or perhaps you're just spouting bullshit. The only welfare state that exists in America is the one set up for, of, and by corporations at the expense of actual humans.
- kolbe 9y ago
  It's funny how you said "what welfare" and then went and listed welfare programs that you know exist, but just want to be bigger. It's fine that you think that, but whether they're big (as they are now), or bigger (as you want them to be), they exist, and it's important, not just morally, but economically, for us to care about the well being of people receiving public assistance. Helping the needy is harder than just reaching into a rich person's wallet and handing their money over to poor. I find that too many people just get schadenfreude from taking from the rich, and seem to forget that the goal is to help the needy. And if you need a list of what we have: Section 8. Food stamps. Disability. Socialized health insurance. Medicaid. Fannie Mae. And, quite frankly, the military itself.
- ralusek 9y ago
  It's not correct to say that America isn't a welfare state, and if you're a Democrat (which it sounds like you are), then you should not be offended by that term. This is the distribution of federal spending: https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/cbofiles/images/pubs-images/52xxx/52408-Land-Budget_Overall.png https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/cbofiles/images/pubs... Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid consist of almost 50% of the federal budget. If you include "Other," which includes other welfare programs such as veterans benefits, federal food stamps, as well as "Non-defense," which includes additional veterans benefits/housing/health, you can see that a very large percentage of the federal budget is on welfare programs. Military budget in the US is obviously absolutely atrociously massive, but it is only about 15% of the budget. If you look at the federal debt, you can see that the trajectory doesn't look great: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ac/Total_US_Federal_Debt_by_President_%281940_to_2015%29.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ac/Total_US... So I don't think it is at all fair to say that the US is not a welfare state, particularly when compared to the foundation of the country being rooted in laissez-faire classical liberalism. I am all for the discussion of mitigating attempts on economic distribution of wealth, but what we have in place even now already far surpasses what the budget is capable of facilitating (in terms of cost, not strategy or outcome).
s73ver_ 9y ago
Why is it that the faults of people always boil down to "personal responsibility", but the faults of companies never do? Why is FB not responsible for what they're doing to their platform?

by kolbe 9y ago

MsMowz 9y ago

We don't have a welfare state. We probably have fewer social services than any other industrialized country.

pixl97 9y ago
>fewer social services than any other industrialized country. Conversely your own argument can simply be stated as "We have a smaller welfare state than most other industrialized countries" So I don't think you successfully argued that we don't have a welfare state at all.
- s73ver_ 9y ago
  The existence of welfare does not a welfare state make.
  - pixl97 9y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_state https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_state By the technical definition, yea, it does seem to.
- MsMowz 9y ago
  If any state that isn't just police and a military counts as a welfare state, then I don't think that's a useful definition of welfare state.

wcarron 9y ago

What are you even talking about? Welfare state?? What welfare? You mean the access to women's health clinics like planned parenthood that has been gutted and made more difficult to obtain by republicans? Or perhaps you mean the "abundance" of low income housing? Or the meager percentage of the budget that goes to food stamps (which, somehow, is viewed as an egregious offense despite rampant military budget overruns)? Or perhaps you're just spouting bullshit. The only welfare state that exists in America is the one set up for, of, and by corporations at the expense of actual humans.

kolbe 9y ago
It's funny how you said "what welfare" and then went and listed welfare programs that you know exist, but just want to be bigger. It's fine that you think that, but whether they're big (as they are now), or bigger (as you want them to be), they exist, and it's important, not just morally, but economically, for us to care about the well being of people receiving public assistance. Helping the needy is harder than just reaching into a rich person's wallet and handing their money over to poor. I find that too many people just get schadenfreude from taking from the rich, and seem to forget that the goal is to help the needy. And if you need a list of what we have: Section 8. Food stamps. Disability. Socialized health insurance. Medicaid. Fannie Mae. And, quite frankly, the military itself.
ralusek 9y ago
It's not correct to say that America isn't a welfare state, and if you're a Democrat (which it sounds like you are), then you should not be offended by that term. This is the distribution of federal spending: https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/cbofiles/images/pubs-images/52xxx/52408-Land-Budget_Overall.png https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/cbofiles/images/pubs... Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid consist of almost 50% of the federal budget. If you include "Other," which includes other welfare programs such as veterans benefits, federal food stamps, as well as "Non-defense," which includes additional veterans benefits/housing/health, you can see that a very large percentage of the federal budget is on welfare programs. Military budget in the US is obviously absolutely atrociously massive, but it is only about 15% of the budget. If you look at the federal debt, you can see that the trajectory doesn't look great: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ac/Total_US_Federal_Debt_by_President_%281940_to_2015%29.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ac/Total_US... So I don't think it is at all fair to say that the US is not a welfare state, particularly when compared to the foundation of the country being rooted in laissez-faire classical liberalism. I am all for the discussion of mitigating attempts on economic distribution of wealth, but what we have in place even now already far surpasses what the budget is capable of facilitating (in terms of cost, not strategy or outcome).

s73ver_ 9y ago

Why is it that the faults of people always boil down to "personal responsibility", but the faults of companies never do? Why is FB not responsible for what they're doing to their platform?