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In the high-end gamers do care very much about power consumption and especially cooling. Even in the mid-range it's something that can sway the buying decision

In the high-end gamers do care very much about power consumption and especially cooling. Even in the mid-range it's something that can sway the buying decision from AMD to Nvidia, especially when the higher power consumption doesn't come with a performance lead. With cryptominers I'm not sure they are actually "voting" for anything, to me it rather looks like they are buying up pretty much all the decent mid to high range cards in bulk, regardless of brand, it's more about availability.

pizza234 9y ago
High-end gamers are not representative of the audience. In the mid-range (/general audience) it's true heat can sway the buying decision, and in fact, everything that comes along with heat (for example, space occupation) is taken into account in the price.
Tuna-Fish 9y ago
For the mass market, heat/power matters a lot. The most successful GPU of recent years was the GeForce 750 Ti. It was notable for being a GPU that did not require an external power connector that could be plugged into basically any pre-built computer with crappy integrated graphics for a major upgrade, without having to improve cooling or the PSU. This is the segment where most of the revenue is made in GPUs, and it's where AMD is really hurting. Right now, if you are building a new computer and get to make all your own component selections, a Vega 56 card at MSRP can be a really good deal, at that segment AMD GPUs are really competitive except at the very top -- you might pay a little more in the PSU and your power bill, but the sticker price of the GPU will make up for that. However, if, like >90% of gamers, you don't make all your own component decisions and don't have the power budget, the NVidia 1050Ti reigns supreme. The best competition AMD can muster against it in the "no external power connector" segment are some RX560 models. This is in itself a terrible marketing decision as it prevents the kind of word of mouth "just buy a 750Ti" advertising that worked really well for nVidia, on top of the fact that in the segment the AMD cards just do much less well than the nVidia ones.
- paulmd 9y ago
  You're overstating some of this. Some 750 Tis actually do need an external power connector, and the high-end/enthusiast market actually doesn't care about power consumption as long as the performance justifies it. If Vega were smoking a 1080 Ti then you wouldn't hear any grumbling at all. It's when you get into a situation where Vega is pulling more power than a 1080 Ti and delivering performance that's barely above a 1070 in many titles that people start to get queasy about it. PCGH just put out their new benchmark charts and the only Vega part that can even match the 1080 on average is the 64 Liquid Cooled version, which is roughly a $650 product at the moment. You're paying 1080 Ti money for a 1080 that pulls twice as much power as a 1080, which is a pretty unappealing on the whole. The only real value argument AMD has been able to make is FreeSync, but it can't really make up for that kind of performance/value deficit. http://www.pcgameshardware.de/Grafikkarten-Grafikkarte-97980/Specials/Rangliste-GPU-Grafikchip-Benchmark-1174201/ http://www.pcgameshardware.de/Grafikkarten-Grafikkarte-97980... Another little-discussed disadvantage is that Vega is a delicate little flower, even moreso than Fiji was. Even most board partners that normally allow you to keep your warranty while using a waterblock have decided that Vega is just too delicate to have users taking the cooler off. You put a waterblock on, you lose your warranty. Many stores are not allowing returns for them either and I suspect this is a factor (along with generally immature drivers and other problems resulting in generally low user satisfaction).
  - slededit 9y ago
    The no return policies started with the current cryptomining boom. Most stores I've seen with them apply it to both nvidia and amd.
loup-vaillant 9y ago
Crypto currency miners don't use GPU. They use ASICs, which are about 6 orders of magnitudes more efficient, energy wise. Indeed, they're not voting for anything.
- jkoll 9y ago
  Please tell me where to buy one of these Ethereum ASICs.
  - loup-vaillant 9y ago
    I kinda assumed Bitcoin, since that's where most (almost all?) of the computation is happening. And if Ethereum gets any significant traction, the ASICs will come. That's pretty much inevitable. Heck, I bet ASIC would be worth the investment even for Argon2d hashes —even though that one was designed for modern stock hardware.
    - freeflight 9y ago
      > And if Ethereum gets any significant traction You mean like a $30 billion market cap? [0] Afaik not all blockchain implementations profit from ASIC hardware, some even actively discourage ASCI use by making ASCI hardware use not efficient, like Monero [1], could be that Ethererum does something similar. [0] https://cryptocoincharts.info/coins/info https://cryptocoincharts.info/coins/info [1] https://monero.stackexchange.com/questions/47/is-monero-amenable-to-asic-mining https://monero.stackexchange.com/questions/47/is-monero-amen...

pizza234 9y ago

High-end gamers are not representative of the audience. In the mid-range (/general audience) it's true heat can sway the buying decision, and in fact, everything that comes along with heat (for example, space occupation) is taken into account in the price.

Tuna-Fish 9y ago

For the mass market, heat/power matters a lot. The most successful GPU of recent years was the GeForce 750 Ti. It was notable for being a GPU that did not require an external power connector that could be plugged into basically any pre-built computer with crappy integrated graphics for a major upgrade, without having to improve cooling or the PSU. This is the segment where most of the revenue is made in GPUs, and it's where AMD is really hurting. Right now, if you are building a new computer and get to make all your own component selections, a Vega 56 card at MSRP can be a really good deal, at that segment AMD GPUs are really competitive except at the very top -- you might pay a little more in the PSU and your power bill, but the sticker price of the GPU will make up for that. However, if, like >90% of gamers, you don't make all your own component decisions and don't have the power budget, the NVidia 1050Ti reigns supreme. The best competition AMD can muster against it in the "no external power connector" segment are some RX560 models. This is in itself a terrible marketing decision as it prevents the kind of word of mouth "just buy a 750Ti" advertising that worked really well for nVidia, on top of the fact that in the segment the AMD cards just do much less well than the nVidia ones.

paulmd 9y ago
You're overstating some of this. Some 750 Tis actually do need an external power connector, and the high-end/enthusiast market actually doesn't care about power consumption as long as the performance justifies it. If Vega were smoking a 1080 Ti then you wouldn't hear any grumbling at all. It's when you get into a situation where Vega is pulling more power than a 1080 Ti and delivering performance that's barely above a 1070 in many titles that people start to get queasy about it. PCGH just put out their new benchmark charts and the only Vega part that can even match the 1080 on average is the 64 Liquid Cooled version, which is roughly a $650 product at the moment. You're paying 1080 Ti money for a 1080 that pulls twice as much power as a 1080, which is a pretty unappealing on the whole. The only real value argument AMD has been able to make is FreeSync, but it can't really make up for that kind of performance/value deficit. http://www.pcgameshardware.de/Grafikkarten-Grafikkarte-97980/Specials/Rangliste-GPU-Grafikchip-Benchmark-1174201/ http://www.pcgameshardware.de/Grafikkarten-Grafikkarte-97980... Another little-discussed disadvantage is that Vega is a delicate little flower, even moreso than Fiji was. Even most board partners that normally allow you to keep your warranty while using a waterblock have decided that Vega is just too delicate to have users taking the cooler off. You put a waterblock on, you lose your warranty. Many stores are not allowing returns for them either and I suspect this is a factor (along with generally immature drivers and other problems resulting in generally low user satisfaction).
- slededit 9y ago
  The no return policies started with the current cryptomining boom. Most stores I've seen with them apply it to both nvidia and amd.

loup-vaillant 9y ago

Crypto currency miners don't use GPU. They use ASICs, which are about 6 orders of magnitudes more efficient, energy wise. Indeed, they're not voting for anything.

jkoll 9y ago
Please tell me where to buy one of these Ethereum ASICs.
- loup-vaillant 9y ago
  I kinda assumed Bitcoin, since that's where most (almost all?) of the computation is happening. And if Ethereum gets any significant traction, the ASICs will come. That's pretty much inevitable. Heck, I bet ASIC would be worth the investment even for Argon2d hashes —even though that one was designed for modern stock hardware.
  - freeflight 9y ago
    > And if Ethereum gets any significant traction You mean like a $30 billion market cap? [0] Afaik not all blockchain implementations profit from ASIC hardware, some even actively discourage ASCI use by making ASCI hardware use not efficient, like Monero [1], could be that Ethererum does something similar. [0] https://cryptocoincharts.info/coins/info https://cryptocoincharts.info/coins/info [1] https://monero.stackexchange.com/questions/47/is-monero-amenable-to-asic-mining https://monero.stackexchange.com/questions/47/is-monero-amen...