6 ms·

>The biggest proof is the identity document, which is not trivial to forge. But it's usually trivial to purchase a forgery.

wmf 9y ago
Still, requiring criminals to buy forged IDs is much more friction than not even asking for ID, as happens in the US.
silversmith 9y ago
If someone is targeting you and especially you, I assume it wouldn't be super complicated. However, purchasing a thousand SSNs and automating signups sounds hell of a lot easier than purchasing a thousand passports and physically visiting the bank offices.
kuschku 9y ago
If you have a way to circumvent the electronic signing solution used by most European eIDs, then nothing stops you anyway.
- ryanlol 9y ago
  Nobody would ever question a broken chip. I don't think they even read them in most places, perhaps Estonia? (before the Infineon thing anyway)
  - Luc 9y ago
    Banks, police, city administration, doctors, pharmacies, insurance - those are the reasons I've pulled out my ID card in the past 10 years, and every single time it was to read the chip, with barely a passing glance given to the card itself.
    - ryanlol 9y ago
      I suppose you'd just use a passport instead then? Or do they actually verify those too?
      - kuschku 9y ago
        If you use a passport, it'll take a lot longer to verify. For example, banks will photocopy your passport and verify the signature on it to ensure that it's correct. (Basically, there's an algorithm used to compute a 30 digit hash on the ID or passport, which is computed from the IDs content and a secret seed. Anyone can verify this hash easily with open algorithms and tools, but only the government can create them).
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
PeterisP 9y ago
No, not really. I've read that in USA it's somewhat common for people to possess fake IDs e.g. for students for age-verification purposes; but in EU forged IDs are serious business - it's really hard to make a somewhat passable forgery, it's harder than counterfeiting currency, so unless you've got contacts with organized crime (e.g. your local drug dealer doesn't have such access) you're not going to find anyone willing to make you such an ID, and if you do, it's likely a police sting operation. Getting a fake ID gives limited benefits and means jailtime even if you don't attempt to use it (fraud charges would be extra), there's not much demand among "normal people" for it (unlike e.g. drugs), so there's not a flowing market that would make such a purchase trivial. Also, even if you could get one, it's going to cost thousands, so it's not worth it for mass scamming. Also, you'd have to show up in person and risk immediate arrest if the forgery gets detected.
- ryanlol 9y ago
  > it's really hard to make a somewhat passable forgery It's not, I've held several. For EU countries. >unless you've got contacts with organized crime Or an internet connection! >Getting a fake ID gives limited benefits and means jailtime even if you don't attempt to use it My personal experience has been very different. But I guess this'll vary from country to country. >there's not much demand among "normal people" for it How many undocumented migrants are there in Europe again? Are those people not "normal"? >Also, even if you could get one, it's going to cost thousands Nonsense, hundreds.
  - chki 9y ago
    You're seriously admitting to holding various forged ID cards in several EU countries? To me that is similar to someone just casually noticing that they have made counterfeit money or stolen a wallet – seriously criminal. And I'm also heavily doubting that an internet connection is enough to get a forged ID card. It does elude me how one would do that without some sort of special machines.
    - ryanlol 9y ago
      There are tons of online sellers... ID cards and passports are far easier to ship than drugs. Even the reddit fakeid community seems to have some pretty good EU ids.

wmf 9y ago

Still, requiring criminals to buy forged IDs is much more friction than not even asking for ID, as happens in the US.

silversmith 9y ago

If someone is targeting you and especially you, I assume it wouldn't be super complicated. However, purchasing a thousand SSNs and automating signups sounds hell of a lot easier than purchasing a thousand passports and physically visiting the bank offices.

kuschku 9y ago

If you have a way to circumvent the electronic signing solution used by most European eIDs, then nothing stops you anyway.

ryanlol 9y ago
Nobody would ever question a broken chip. I don't think they even read them in most places, perhaps Estonia? (before the Infineon thing anyway)
- Luc 9y ago
  Banks, police, city administration, doctors, pharmacies, insurance - those are the reasons I've pulled out my ID card in the past 10 years, and every single time it was to read the chip, with barely a passing glance given to the card itself.
  - ryanlol 9y ago
    I suppose you'd just use a passport instead then? Or do they actually verify those too?
    - kuschku 9y ago
      If you use a passport, it'll take a lot longer to verify. For example, banks will photocopy your passport and verify the signature on it to ensure that it's correct. (Basically, there's an algorithm used to compute a 30 digit hash on the ID or passport, which is computed from the IDs content and a secret seed. Anyone can verify this hash easily with open algorithms and tools, but only the government can create them).

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

PeterisP 9y ago

No, not really. I've read that in USA it's somewhat common for people to possess fake IDs e.g. for students for age-verification purposes; but in EU forged IDs are serious business - it's really hard to make a somewhat passable forgery, it's harder than counterfeiting currency, so unless you've got contacts with organized crime (e.g. your local drug dealer doesn't have such access) you're not going to find anyone willing to make you such an ID, and if you do, it's likely a police sting operation. Getting a fake ID gives limited benefits and means jailtime even if you don't attempt to use it (fraud charges would be extra), there's not much demand among "normal people" for it (unlike e.g. drugs), so there's not a flowing market that would make such a purchase trivial. Also, even if you could get one, it's going to cost thousands, so it's not worth it for mass scamming. Also, you'd have to show up in person and risk immediate arrest if the forgery gets detected.

ryanlol 9y ago
> it's really hard to make a somewhat passable forgery It's not, I've held several. For EU countries. >unless you've got contacts with organized crime Or an internet connection! >Getting a fake ID gives limited benefits and means jailtime even if you don't attempt to use it My personal experience has been very different. But I guess this'll vary from country to country. >there's not much demand among "normal people" for it How many undocumented migrants are there in Europe again? Are those people not "normal"? >Also, even if you could get one, it's going to cost thousands Nonsense, hundreds.
- chki 9y ago
  You're seriously admitting to holding various forged ID cards in several EU countries? To me that is similar to someone just casually noticing that they have made counterfeit money or stolen a wallet – seriously criminal. And I'm also heavily doubting that an internet connection is enough to get a forged ID card. It does elude me how one would do that without some sort of special machines.
  - ryanlol 9y ago
    There are tons of online sellers... ID cards and passports are far easier to ship than drugs. Even the reddit fakeid community seems to have some pretty good EU ids.