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If we go the centralized route, we're just creating another Equifax (walled garden). That has always worked out great in the past, right?

Spooky23 9y ago
It depends on the scope. You already have 50+ walled gardens, also known as the “Bureau of Vital Statistics”. Any identity document you have in the US is either linked to a birth certificate in one of those registries, or with an immigration record maintained by the Federal government.
- craftyguy 9y ago
  > You already have 50+ walled gardens, also known as the “Bureau of Vital Statistics”. This seems like the bandwagon fallacy. That's no reason to continue the insanity of promoting walled gardens as a solution.
  - Spooky23 9y ago
    Your birth is when you become a human and your identity is created. What would be a more ultimate root of trust than the memorial of your birth, held securely by a trusted authority?
    - craftyguy 9y ago
      Birth certificates are pieces of paper that literally anything identifying as a hospital can create 'offically'. It would be trivial to create a forged certificate, there are a ton of dark net sites offering them for sale. If the US $1 bill were this easy to create (it's not), it would be worth pretty much nothing.
      - Spooky23 9y ago
        Yup, and that’s the anchor of trust. The walled garden doesn’t make that better or worse... we’re not going to having key signing parties at birth. That’s why police and public trust background checks look to confirm bona fides with real people over an extended period. You still don’t know that the birth certificate is real in many cases, but you can trace it back to grade school if need be, or if the birth record is from a suspect issuer.
      - cesarb 9y ago
        > Birth certificates are pieces of paper that literally anything identifying as a hospital can create 'officially'. I don't know how it works in European countries, but here in Brazil, birth certificates are made by notaries, not hospitals. You might be able to get forged hospital documents to take to the notary, but getting a "backdated" birth certificate for an adult is harder (getting a second copy of your birth certificate is easy, however; just go to the same notary, who has every birth certificate it emitted registered on its books).
        Spooky23 9y ago
        The US has something like 7-10k issuing agencies. In some places, it is trivial to request somebody’s birth certificate. It’s one of those weird US things where localities control stuff that they lack the ability to do well. Regardless of issues, it’s still the penultimate representation of you.
slaymaker1907 9y ago
I think the hope is that it is centralized through the government so that there is direct accountability to the public.
- craftyguy 9y ago
  Since when is the government actually held accountable by the public, or has ever felt accountable to the public? If anything, it's only ever "just enough accountable" so much as nothing leaks out indicating otherwise. And even when it does, it's "oh, look over there, snowden/russia/DPRK/whatever!"
orthecreedence 9y ago
> That has always worked out great in the past, right? Yes, absolutely. Sometimes centralization is a better solution. You pointed to one example where a shitty company failed. I'm not suggesting replacing the SSA with a scummy private company. Not sure where you're getting that idea. I'm talking about the SSA changing their processes to include a more secure method of verifying identity without leaking information. Same risks, same organizations, better technology.

Spooky23 9y ago

It depends on the scope. You already have 50+ walled gardens, also known as the “Bureau of Vital Statistics”. Any identity document you have in the US is either linked to a birth certificate in one of those registries, or with an immigration record maintained by the Federal government.

craftyguy 9y ago
> You already have 50+ walled gardens, also known as the “Bureau of Vital Statistics”. This seems like the bandwagon fallacy. That's no reason to continue the insanity of promoting walled gardens as a solution.
- Spooky23 9y ago
  Your birth is when you become a human and your identity is created. What would be a more ultimate root of trust than the memorial of your birth, held securely by a trusted authority?
  - craftyguy 9y ago
    Birth certificates are pieces of paper that literally anything identifying as a hospital can create 'offically'. It would be trivial to create a forged certificate, there are a ton of dark net sites offering them for sale. If the US $1 bill were this easy to create (it's not), it would be worth pretty much nothing.
    - Spooky23 9y ago
      Yup, and that’s the anchor of trust. The walled garden doesn’t make that better or worse... we’re not going to having key signing parties at birth. That’s why police and public trust background checks look to confirm bona fides with real people over an extended period. You still don’t know that the birth certificate is real in many cases, but you can trace it back to grade school if need be, or if the birth record is from a suspect issuer.
    - cesarb 9y ago
      > Birth certificates are pieces of paper that literally anything identifying as a hospital can create 'officially'. I don't know how it works in European countries, but here in Brazil, birth certificates are made by notaries, not hospitals. You might be able to get forged hospital documents to take to the notary, but getting a "backdated" birth certificate for an adult is harder (getting a second copy of your birth certificate is easy, however; just go to the same notary, who has every birth certificate it emitted registered on its books).
      - Spooky23 9y ago
        The US has something like 7-10k issuing agencies. In some places, it is trivial to request somebody’s birth certificate. It’s one of those weird US things where localities control stuff that they lack the ability to do well. Regardless of issues, it’s still the penultimate representation of you.

slaymaker1907 9y ago

I think the hope is that it is centralized through the government so that there is direct accountability to the public.

craftyguy 9y ago
Since when is the government actually held accountable by the public, or has ever felt accountable to the public? If anything, it's only ever "just enough accountable" so much as nothing leaks out indicating otherwise. And even when it does, it's "oh, look over there, snowden/russia/DPRK/whatever!"

orthecreedence 9y ago

> That has always worked out great in the past, right? Yes, absolutely. Sometimes centralization is a better solution. You pointed to one example where a shitty company failed. I'm not suggesting replacing the SSA with a scummy private company. Not sure where you're getting that idea. I'm talking about the SSA changing their processes to include a more secure method of verifying identity without leaking information. Same risks, same organizations, better technology.