5 ms·

I recently re-read the story about the rat park experiment. http://www.stuartmcmillen.com/comic/rat-park/ http://www.stuartmcmillen.com/comic/rat-park/ The gi

I recently re-read the story about the rat park experiment. http://www.stuartmcmillen.com/comic/rat-park/ http://www.stuartmcmillen.com/comic/rat-park/ The gist of it is that yes, rats do get addicted to morphine and prefer it to food, but only if kept in cages. The rats living in a much less confined space with other rats, allowed to play, nest, have sex and do pretty much all the rat fun things not only did not get addicted to morphine but even waned themselves off of it. Speaks a lot to the causes which this epidemic is a symptom of and makes me think that addressing it will not be an easy or quick process.

btown 9y ago
Something I often think about is whether having a job - the agency to by one's own hand change one's prospects in life, to "provide for one's family" - is our equivalent of this "less confined space." In a post-automation post-scarcity world, despite boundless entertainment and resources (things that would make rats perfectly happy)... would ennui still drive people towards self-destructive behavior? And in fact, would the optimization of that entertainment (see: usedopamine.com ) actually prime people's brains towards addiction, towards whatever form the next opioid epidemic might take? We understand so little about our own minds and how they might respond to the world we are ushering in.
- miketery 9y ago
  Post scarcity? Where, when, and for who? Our current economic models don't work for that unfortunately. Edit: I should add there are a couple post scarcity instances in recent history. Establishment of America, and post WW2. These also coincided with the least income inequality. But those periods don't last.
  - gizmo686 9y ago
    In what ways were the Establishment of America, and post WW2 post scarcity? US inflation adjusted per capita GDP is higher today than at either of those times. While I do not think GDP is a great metric, I cannot think of any metric where we, as a society, have less "stuff" to go around then before.
    - lostlogin 9y ago
      It’s not the amount of stuff, it’s the inequality.
      - jfnixon 9y ago
        Interesting hypothesis. How does it explain the doctor in the article, or the lawyers, entertainers, and other wealthy people who wind up addicted?
        lostlogin 9y ago
        It probably doesn’t and the uptick in the deaths of comparatively advantaged groups doesn’t fit the model well. Addiction and distress have well documented links with things like unemployment rates correlating well with ODs and deaths. However despite wealthy people featuring in the article the vast majority of the deaths, ODs and incarcerations aren’t in the group you describe. https://www.google.co.nz/amp/s/www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/534087/ https://www.google.co.nz/amp/s/www.theatlantic.com/amp/artic...
        jfnixon 9y ago
        Fair enough. Still, I'd suggest that the wealthy group indicate opiates scratch an itch which is probably unrelated to inequality. Even if we drastically reduced inequality, that itch would likely still exist. I'd also find it interesting if there was a comparison of the per capita ratio of wealthy addicts to poor addicts. It seems entirely plausible that a causal, not simply correlative, link exists between unemployment/poverty and 'bad' addictive behaviors, but something is hooking highly functioning, wealthy humans on opioids, too. On a tangent, while I've never had chronic pain, I've had friends who have, and I know it can destroy anyone's life. I don't want to see the abuse of effective pain meds by some lead to difficulties in obtaining pain relief for those who really need it. Someone in chronic pain has enough to handle without worrying about maintaining access to appropriate medication.
        9y ago
- andrei_says_ 9y ago
  If you look at Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, the need for meaning / meaningful contribution is extremely important. I’d say that jobs in the context of survival are useful, but we as human beings also need a sense of accomplishment, of being useful to others beyond the value associated with mere profit.
throwa_way_ 9y ago
It's not really a well designed study and it's one that hasn't replicated well. But people still love bringing it up, especially here on HN where people seem to think they know better than the experts on everything to do with medicine.
- andrei_says_ 9y ago
  Some sources on this? I’d love to read more.
  - barrkel 9y ago
    http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/10/25/against-rat-park/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/10/25/against-rat-park/ has links, e.g.: http://sci-hub.io/10.2466/pr0.1996.78.2.391 http://sci-hub.io/10.2466/pr0.1996.78.2.391 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2616610 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2616610 But there are other studies linked that seem to confirm it. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3696469 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3696469 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18463628 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18463628 Not sure where that leaves us.
    - krisives 9y ago
      Makes the guy who brought up sources look stupid
      - lostlogin 9y ago
        Not at all. Seeing what the OP has seen allows a better evaluation. I wish more online groups put more weight on sources.
        krisives 9y ago
        Says sources discredit his point then provides sources that do neither.
- 9y ago
jaredklewis 9y ago
Reminds me of https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2017/01/teens-drugs-iceland/513668/ https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2017/01/teens-dru...

btown 9y ago

Something I often think about is whether having a job - the agency to by one's own hand change one's prospects in life, to "provide for one's family" - is our equivalent of this "less confined space." In a post-automation post-scarcity world, despite boundless entertainment and resources (things that would make rats perfectly happy)... would ennui still drive people towards self-destructive behavior? And in fact, would the optimization of that entertainment (see: usedopamine.com ) actually prime people's brains towards addiction, towards whatever form the next opioid epidemic might take? We understand so little about our own minds and how they might respond to the world we are ushering in.

miketery 9y ago
Post scarcity? Where, when, and for who? Our current economic models don't work for that unfortunately. Edit: I should add there are a couple post scarcity instances in recent history. Establishment of America, and post WW2. These also coincided with the least income inequality. But those periods don't last.
- gizmo686 9y ago
  In what ways were the Establishment of America, and post WW2 post scarcity? US inflation adjusted per capita GDP is higher today than at either of those times. While I do not think GDP is a great metric, I cannot think of any metric where we, as a society, have less "stuff" to go around then before.
  - lostlogin 9y ago
    It’s not the amount of stuff, it’s the inequality.
    - jfnixon 9y ago
      Interesting hypothesis. How does it explain the doctor in the article, or the lawyers, entertainers, and other wealthy people who wind up addicted?
      - lostlogin 9y ago
        It probably doesn’t and the uptick in the deaths of comparatively advantaged groups doesn’t fit the model well. Addiction and distress have well documented links with things like unemployment rates correlating well with ODs and deaths. However despite wealthy people featuring in the article the vast majority of the deaths, ODs and incarcerations aren’t in the group you describe. https://www.google.co.nz/amp/s/www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/534087/ https://www.google.co.nz/amp/s/www.theatlantic.com/amp/artic...
        jfnixon 9y ago
        Fair enough. Still, I'd suggest that the wealthy group indicate opiates scratch an itch which is probably unrelated to inequality. Even if we drastically reduced inequality, that itch would likely still exist. I'd also find it interesting if there was a comparison of the per capita ratio of wealthy addicts to poor addicts. It seems entirely plausible that a causal, not simply correlative, link exists between unemployment/poverty and 'bad' addictive behaviors, but something is hooking highly functioning, wealthy humans on opioids, too. On a tangent, while I've never had chronic pain, I've had friends who have, and I know it can destroy anyone's life. I don't want to see the abuse of effective pain meds by some lead to difficulties in obtaining pain relief for those who really need it. Someone in chronic pain has enough to handle without worrying about maintaining access to appropriate medication.
        9y ago
andrei_says_ 9y ago
If you look at Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, the need for meaning / meaningful contribution is extremely important. I’d say that jobs in the context of survival are useful, but we as human beings also need a sense of accomplishment, of being useful to others beyond the value associated with mere profit.

throwa_way_ 9y ago

It's not really a well designed study and it's one that hasn't replicated well. But people still love bringing it up, especially here on HN where people seem to think they know better than the experts on everything to do with medicine.

andrei_says_ 9y ago
Some sources on this? I’d love to read more.
- barrkel 9y ago
  http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/10/25/against-rat-park/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/10/25/against-rat-park/ has links, e.g.: http://sci-hub.io/10.2466/pr0.1996.78.2.391 http://sci-hub.io/10.2466/pr0.1996.78.2.391 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2616610 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2616610 But there are other studies linked that seem to confirm it. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3696469 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3696469 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18463628 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18463628 Not sure where that leaves us.
  - krisives 9y ago
    Makes the guy who brought up sources look stupid
    - lostlogin 9y ago
      Not at all. Seeing what the OP has seen allows a better evaluation. I wish more online groups put more weight on sources.
      - krisives 9y ago
        Says sources discredit his point then provides sources that do neither.
9y ago

jaredklewis 9y ago

Reminds me of https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2017/01/teens-drugs-iceland/513668/ https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2017/01/teens-dru...