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You said it in your comment and I've seen it in other posts here on HN. It shouldn't be called identity theft. It should be called fraud. That's what it is. Th

You said it in your comment and I've seen it in other posts here on HN. It shouldn't be called identity theft. It should be called fraud. That's what it is. The idea of an identity, especially a permanent one that travels with you throughout your life, is a relative recent one. 200 years ago, you could escape your past sins, so long as you didn't have an identifiable face and could speak the language at your destination. (If you couldn't you ran the very real risk of becoming a slave, which is caused by removing a person from their context; e.g. family, language and community). There is a deeper question of "What is an identity?" and we also have to realize that the digital identities have never existed throughout history. Not in the way they do today. It's hard for us to imagine a world before passports, before real borders and before permanent numbers and documents that follow citizens throughout their lives. And the principal reason we have digital identities today? Debt. It is solely to trace debt. It has nothing to do with proving you went to x university or worked at y job. There are other ways to track that, which are terribly inaccurate when you really start to look at them. The principal reason for your SSN, your digital identity, is to track credit and debt. I highly recommend the book _Debt: The First 5,000 Years_. It really goes into depth on this concept.

danans 9y ago
And related to your prior point about slavery, the function of personal bankruptcy is to prevent debt slavery: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_bankruptcy_law https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_bankruptcy_law
- moonka 9y ago
  Which makes the changes to the rules surrounding personal bankruptcy in 2005 even more ominous, especially when it comes to big ticket items such as student loans. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bankruptcy_Abuse_Prevention_and_Consumer_Protection_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bankruptcy_Abuse_Prevention_an...
  - coupdetaco 9y ago
    The primary changes were to do with credit card debt. If you make >40k then you are not able to do Chapter 11. Instead, you need to do Chapter 7.
    - howard941 9y ago
      No no no no, none of this is correct. Income limits are based on your state's median income for your family size. Chapter 11 is always available; it doesn't make sense for most individuals because of quarterly UST fees. Chapter 7, and Chapter 13 plans based on actual expenses were means tested. Private student loans were made non dischargable. Times between serial filings yielding a discharge were increased by 25%. Pre and post filing counseling/edu were mandated. Google BAPCPA for more because the bill Bush signed sucks. EDIT: Nevermind, the wiki link in the post before yours is great.
Spooky23 9y ago
But remember that 200 years ago you couldn’t travel, were most certainly dirt poor, and worked to eat. And you did have identity records. If you were rich enough to have checks, you’d appear in a city directory and banks would rate your creditworthiness. If you travelled, you’d have to have silver or gold in hand, as your Boston banknote was worthless in Virginia.
- ravitation 9y ago
  200 years ago was 1817... I think you both need to go a little further back.
  - Spooky23 9y ago
    My family was in Ireland. 1817 wasn’t much different than 1617.
    - Terr_ 9y ago
      Heck no, Ireland was going gangbusters in the later part of those 200 years! [0] It's what came shortly after -- around 1845 -- that erased all the progress. > No matter what degree of culpability should be assigned to Britain, the consequences of the famine to Ireland are indisputable: it broke the nation in half. At a million or more fatalities, it was one of the deadliest famines in history, in terms of percentage of population lost. A similar famine in the United States today would kill almost forty million people. Only the famine of 1918-22 in the Soviet Union may have been worse. > Within a decade of the blight another two million fled Ireland. Many more followed in subsequent decades, inexorably driving its population down. The nation never regained its footing. As late as the 1960s its population was half what it had been in 1840. > Today Ireland has the melancholy distinction of being the only nation in Europe, and perhaps the world, to have fewer people within the same boundaries than it did more than 150 years ago. -- Transcribed from the book "1493" by Charles C. Mann. [0] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:IrelandEuropePopulation1750.PNG https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:IrelandEuropePopulat...
      - 9y ago
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
vt100 9y ago
The point of parent is that there are two crimes (or at least a crime and a tort) here: - by the scammer against the bank, i.e. fraud - by the bank against the legitimate identity owner, i.e. what the parent calls "bank slander"

danans 9y ago

And related to your prior point about slavery, the function of personal bankruptcy is to prevent debt slavery: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_bankruptcy_law https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_bankruptcy_law

moonka 9y ago
Which makes the changes to the rules surrounding personal bankruptcy in 2005 even more ominous, especially when it comes to big ticket items such as student loans. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bankruptcy_Abuse_Prevention_and_Consumer_Protection_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bankruptcy_Abuse_Prevention_an...
- coupdetaco 9y ago
  The primary changes were to do with credit card debt. If you make >40k then you are not able to do Chapter 11. Instead, you need to do Chapter 7.
  - howard941 9y ago
    No no no no, none of this is correct. Income limits are based on your state's median income for your family size. Chapter 11 is always available; it doesn't make sense for most individuals because of quarterly UST fees. Chapter 7, and Chapter 13 plans based on actual expenses were means tested. Private student loans were made non dischargable. Times between serial filings yielding a discharge were increased by 25%. Pre and post filing counseling/edu were mandated. Google BAPCPA for more because the bill Bush signed sucks. EDIT: Nevermind, the wiki link in the post before yours is great.

Spooky23 9y ago

But remember that 200 years ago you couldn’t travel, were most certainly dirt poor, and worked to eat. And you did have identity records. If you were rich enough to have checks, you’d appear in a city directory and banks would rate your creditworthiness. If you travelled, you’d have to have silver or gold in hand, as your Boston banknote was worthless in Virginia.

ravitation 9y ago
200 years ago was 1817... I think you both need to go a little further back.
- Spooky23 9y ago
  My family was in Ireland. 1817 wasn’t much different than 1617.
  - Terr_ 9y ago
    Heck no, Ireland was going gangbusters in the later part of those 200 years! [0] It's what came shortly after -- around 1845 -- that erased all the progress. > No matter what degree of culpability should be assigned to Britain, the consequences of the famine to Ireland are indisputable: it broke the nation in half. At a million or more fatalities, it was one of the deadliest famines in history, in terms of percentage of population lost. A similar famine in the United States today would kill almost forty million people. Only the famine of 1918-22 in the Soviet Union may have been worse. > Within a decade of the blight another two million fled Ireland. Many more followed in subsequent decades, inexorably driving its population down. The nation never regained its footing. As late as the 1960s its population was half what it had been in 1840. > Today Ireland has the melancholy distinction of being the only nation in Europe, and perhaps the world, to have fewer people within the same boundaries than it did more than 150 years ago. -- Transcribed from the book "1493" by Charles C. Mann. [0] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:IrelandEuropePopulation1750.PNG https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:IrelandEuropePopulat...
    - 9y ago

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

vt100 9y ago

The point of parent is that there are two crimes (or at least a crime and a tort) here: - by the scammer against the bank, i.e. fraud - by the bank against the legitimate identity owner, i.e. what the parent calls "bank slander"