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>A sizeable portion of Trump's base believes that they are in danger of becoming a minority in "their own" country... Why did you put scare quotes around "thei

>A sizeable portion of Trump's base believes that they are in danger of becoming a minority in "their own" country... Why did you put scare quotes around "their own"? Is it not their own country? Culture changes over time no matter what you do, but is it completely unreasonable to want your culture to change slowly enough that you can still function in your dotage?

edbrown23 9y ago
This is such an interesting topic that is extremely difficult to discuss as people on both sides rapidly devolve to name calling. There's this[0] episode of This American Life which discusses some of this, but I haven't found many others. The point of linking that is only to question whether there are people who want their culture to change more slowly for reasons other than prejudice. Should "obviously wrong" dramatic cultural shifts like gay marriage somehow be slowed so people can get used to the idea? Even in the linked example, there are clearly other forces at work (anti-Muslim propaganda) which seem to exist purely to make it appear that the culture itself is changing entirely, when in reality it's just becoming more mixed race. [0] https://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/600/will-i-know-anyone-at-this-party https://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/600/...
Terr_ 9y ago
> Why did you put scare quotes around "their own"? Is it not their own country? I think the quotes are to suggest that those voters habitually overestimate their share of ownership, compared to everyone else in the country. For clearer and not-political example, consider the average cat and "their house". It is true that they are a legitimate and valued member of the household... But the quotes suggest something about the way the cat sees the world.
anigbrowl 9y ago
We could put them on reservations or something where they can enjoy their simpler way of life undisturbed by the forces of progress.
- gozur88 9y ago
  This sort of attitude is why Trump is president.
  - anigbrowl 9y ago
    It's a factual description of how European sttlers treated the indigenous tribes, and you can find plenty of people who continue to express animus towards Indian tribes. Don't dish it out if you can't take it.
    - gozur88 9y ago
      Why is it people on the left are so intent on having a civil war?
      - anigbrowl 9y ago
        I made a tart comment pointing out what I see as the hypocrisy of the nativist position, and suddenly I'm 'intent on having a civil war'? For people who complain so loudly about political correctness y'all seem pretty damn sensitive to any sort of criticism. This is really reminding me of how supporters of the Confederacy insist on talking about the 'War of Northern Aggression' despite being the ones that started the conflict. Perhaps you could consider matters from a less absolutist perspective.
        gozur88 9y ago
        That's pretty rich from a guy who wants to put people who disagree with him on reservations.
    - sheepmullet 9y ago
      Wait a second.... Don't we all agree that what happened to the indigenous tribes was a tragedy and we don't ever want to repeat it? Doesn't it highlight the problem with unchecked immigration?
ashleyn 9y ago
The point of constitutional liberty is that culture can change as much as you want but you'll always be free to retreat to your enclave where it never will. A great deal of anger seems to be conservatives wanting to engineer the outcome rather than allowing culture to become more inclusive to people not like them e.g. more companies voluntarily saying Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas. This voluntary push to accomidate more non-christian customers is viewed as the "war" on Christmas, with the proposed "solution" being fewer non-christians in the country.
- Oxitendwe 9y ago
  >The point of constitutional liberty is that culture can change as much as you want but you'll always be free to retreat to your enclave where it never will. This is absolutely incorrect, Americans do not have freedom of association, so people of other cultures can always live with you, work with you, buy from you, etc - by law. Whether you think that's a good thing or not, that is a fact: you can't have an enclave in any meaningful sense.
kamaal 9y ago
>>Why did you put scare quotes around "their own"? Because these arguments just condense to 'We got here first' talk?
BuckRogers 9y ago
I agree. I'm an independent (American) who leans left. Those quotes stood out to me too. The quotes to me signaled that the USA is literally everyone and no one's country. Just a free for all and while I'm certainly not against immigration, you can take it too far. Part of the consequences of going too far is that you end up with Trump and iterations of him thereafter. That's not good either. The goal is to simply be sensible and only allow in those who will be a significant positive benefit to our society. Yes, our society. The people already here. People seem to have a hard time grasping that the culture who founded the modern US gov't are indeed those people, or it's somehow become offensive. Even a 1st generation immigrant would agree with that, but not some revisionist who brings up the American Indians as if fair amends haven't been made there or somehow a new government completely void of their influence is somehow not the founding of the country. I hope these same people go around the internet beating the drum on east Asian immigration policies and immigrant acceptance along with Israel. You'd think this country is evil and I completely disagree we're as bad as these finger-wagging liberals insist we are with their scare quotes.

edbrown23 9y ago

This is such an interesting topic that is extremely difficult to discuss as people on both sides rapidly devolve to name calling. There's this[0] episode of This American Life which discusses some of this, but I haven't found many others. The point of linking that is only to question whether there are people who want their culture to change more slowly for reasons other than prejudice. Should "obviously wrong" dramatic cultural shifts like gay marriage somehow be slowed so people can get used to the idea? Even in the linked example, there are clearly other forces at work (anti-Muslim propaganda) which seem to exist purely to make it appear that the culture itself is changing entirely, when in reality it's just becoming more mixed race. [0] https://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/600/will-i-know-anyone-at-this-party https://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/600/...

Terr_ 9y ago

> Why did you put scare quotes around "their own"? Is it not their own country? I think the quotes are to suggest that those voters habitually overestimate their share of ownership, compared to everyone else in the country. For clearer and not-political example, consider the average cat and "their house". It is true that they are a legitimate and valued member of the household... But the quotes suggest something about the way the cat sees the world.

anigbrowl 9y ago

We could put them on reservations or something where they can enjoy their simpler way of life undisturbed by the forces of progress.

gozur88 9y ago
This sort of attitude is why Trump is president.
- anigbrowl 9y ago
  It's a factual description of how European sttlers treated the indigenous tribes, and you can find plenty of people who continue to express animus towards Indian tribes. Don't dish it out if you can't take it.
  - gozur88 9y ago
    Why is it people on the left are so intent on having a civil war?
    - anigbrowl 9y ago
      I made a tart comment pointing out what I see as the hypocrisy of the nativist position, and suddenly I'm 'intent on having a civil war'? For people who complain so loudly about political correctness y'all seem pretty damn sensitive to any sort of criticism. This is really reminding me of how supporters of the Confederacy insist on talking about the 'War of Northern Aggression' despite being the ones that started the conflict. Perhaps you could consider matters from a less absolutist perspective.
      - gozur88 9y ago
        That's pretty rich from a guy who wants to put people who disagree with him on reservations.
  - sheepmullet 9y ago
    Wait a second.... Don't we all agree that what happened to the indigenous tribes was a tragedy and we don't ever want to repeat it? Doesn't it highlight the problem with unchecked immigration?

ashleyn 9y ago

The point of constitutional liberty is that culture can change as much as you want but you'll always be free to retreat to your enclave where it never will. A great deal of anger seems to be conservatives wanting to engineer the outcome rather than allowing culture to become more inclusive to people not like them e.g. more companies voluntarily saying Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas. This voluntary push to accomidate more non-christian customers is viewed as the "war" on Christmas, with the proposed "solution" being fewer non-christians in the country.

Oxitendwe 9y ago
>The point of constitutional liberty is that culture can change as much as you want but you'll always be free to retreat to your enclave where it never will. This is absolutely incorrect, Americans do not have freedom of association, so people of other cultures can always live with you, work with you, buy from you, etc - by law. Whether you think that's a good thing or not, that is a fact: you can't have an enclave in any meaningful sense.

kamaal 9y ago

>>Why did you put scare quotes around "their own"? Because these arguments just condense to 'We got here first' talk?

BuckRogers 9y ago

I agree. I'm an independent (American) who leans left. Those quotes stood out to me too. The quotes to me signaled that the USA is literally everyone and no one's country. Just a free for all and while I'm certainly not against immigration, you can take it too far. Part of the consequences of going too far is that you end up with Trump and iterations of him thereafter. That's not good either. The goal is to simply be sensible and only allow in those who will be a significant positive benefit to our society. Yes, our society. The people already here. People seem to have a hard time grasping that the culture who founded the modern US gov't are indeed those people, or it's somehow become offensive. Even a 1st generation immigrant would agree with that, but not some revisionist who brings up the American Indians as if fair amends haven't been made there or somehow a new government completely void of their influence is somehow not the founding of the country. I hope these same people go around the internet beating the drum on east Asian immigration policies and immigrant acceptance along with Israel. You'd think this country is evil and I completely disagree we're as bad as these finger-wagging liberals insist we are with their scare quotes.