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To play devils advocate, at this point in time with the highest rate of immigration in the history of the country (i think 13%) "conservatives" are looking out

To play devils advocate, at this point in time with the highest rate of immigration in the history of the country (i think 13%) "conservatives" are looking out for the american citizens that are losing out to these high skilled (and low skilled) immigrants. Why is it that we cannot compete with foreign companies with native workers? Why should those countries be okay with losing their top talent? Shoudnt we solve the problem of native workers not having the right skills before we open the borders to everyone else? The other argument I understand is cultural. How much immigration can a society take before it is unrecognizable to the people that live there. You can't say that if you moved 100 million indians to the US ( A fairly small number of the population) it wouldn't look and feel completely different.

powvans 9y ago
These countries may not be okay with losing their top talent. It's an interesting viewpoint on economic competition though. It absolutely is in the best interest of the US to "brain drain" other countries. Note that this isn't new. During and after WWII the US worked hard to bring scientists to the US to prevent them working for the enemy. Just one example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip
and0 9y ago
We're not at the highest point (compared to 1920s) but might be by 2023. We're a very young nation of immigrants, so I find it odd that you wouldn't retroactively apply the grievances about cultural shifts to all the generations that came previously.
- bischofs 9y ago
  That is a good point, however most of the immigrants in the 1920s were from europe. Now that is not the case, they are mostly from asia and southeast asia. There is an argument that there is enough of a cultural difference for it to affect the country one way or another.
  - and0 9y ago
    You know, HN usually slaps me on the wrist for insinuating that someone is a white nationalist, which is why I was pretty low key about it, so.. thanks for just coming out and admitting it, I guess?
    - cat199 9y ago
      stating that regional cultures have more or less similarities and would entail more or less cultural shift doesn't make one a 'white nationalist'.. which itself is a conveniently ambiguous phrase. FDR was white. FDR was nationalist. Was he a 'White Nationalist'? certainly not, but if he publicly held the same political positions he held less than a century before the label would more than likely be applied.
    - bischofs 9y ago
      Hot stuff champ, pulling the old white nationalist insult sure shut down the conversation didn't it. I guess you will sit in your camp and I will sit in mine; no reason to have a civil discussion about the complex topic of immigration.
    - sctb 9y ago
      Could you please stop the information-free provocation and just comment civilly and substantively, like we've asked many times before? We'd like not to ban the account, but that's what happens when this doesn't change. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - zeusk 9y ago
    The natives of US were pillaged by the European immigrants who arrived way prior to 1920s. Ironical, given Thanksgiving is a few weeks from now.
    - jquery 9y ago
      > natives of US were pillaged by the European immigrants Is that an argument for or against immigration by people with different cultural values?
damnyou 9y ago
> Why should those countries be okay with losing their top talent? What sort of thinking is this? People stopped being subjects of their countries a while ago. Countries should compete for people, not trap them. If a country isn't OK with losing its top talent it should fix its institutions to make itself competitive. You know what country doesn't allow its citizens to leave? North Korea. Besides, remittances are a thing.
- bischofs 9y ago
  I completely agree, countries should not trap people. But why is it "making it" in some countries to leave and go to America? Why not build up your own country and affect their living standards in a positive way? Personally I have no desire to leave my country because I like it and want to make it better. I think that is a healthy way to think about your identity.
  - damnyou 9y ago
    > But why is it "making it" in some countries to leave and go to America? Why not build up your own country and affect their living standards in a positive way? Many reasons. * Because they'll be able to add more value to society in the other country. * Because they're part of a marginalized group and the other country has better protections for people like them. Maybe they can't get married in their home country but can in the other country, say. * Most importantly, because they might not want to. People should generally be free to do what they like, right? > I have no desire to leave my country because I like it and want to make it better. Great, sounds awesome! You're free to do as you desire. Others have different desires or constraints and should be free to do as they wish as well.
  - vilmosi 9y ago
    >>> Why not build up your own country and affect their living standards in a positive way? I can answer that in a personal way. Because I don't care. The modern world is capitalist, especially with software. If your work is worth X dollars, why would you work for X/10 dollars? Because of nationalism?
lawtguy 9y ago
The 13% you mentioned I'm assuming is the percentage of the US population that is foreign born. That is not the highest in US history. Take a look at page 3 of this: https://www.census.gov/newsroom/pdf/cspan_fb_slides.pdf https://www.census.gov/newsroom/pdf/cspan_fb_slides.pdf (sorry for the PDF). You'll see that 13-14% foreign born was pretty much the norm from 1860-1920. The US society seemed to survive that just fine. To your point though, I suspect a lot of older voters grew up with much lower immigration (due to the Immigration Act of 1924) and so this level feels really high to them even though it was common for a large part of US history.
kamaal 9y ago
>>Why should those countries be okay with losing their top talent? They are not. But the people there have no options. In my country(India), despite a level of free market reforms, there is still a huge cancer of socialism at large. Socialist spending, affirmative action policies and corruption are extremely rampant. Public apathy is at peak. Almost anybody smart enough to make genuine difference has only one life style, where he/she has to earn all life to pay nearly 50% of all earned money in taxes and yet live a third world quality life. So there is only one option. Just immigrate and save yourself the trouble. >>How much immigration can a society take before it is unrecognizable to the people that live there. You might want to take a look at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus

powvans 9y ago

These countries may not be okay with losing their top talent. It's an interesting viewpoint on economic competition though. It absolutely is in the best interest of the US to "brain drain" other countries. Note that this isn't new. During and after WWII the US worked hard to bring scientists to the US to prevent them working for the enemy. Just one example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip

and0 9y ago

We're not at the highest point (compared to 1920s) but might be by 2023. We're a very young nation of immigrants, so I find it odd that you wouldn't retroactively apply the grievances about cultural shifts to all the generations that came previously.

bischofs 9y ago
That is a good point, however most of the immigrants in the 1920s were from europe. Now that is not the case, they are mostly from asia and southeast asia. There is an argument that there is enough of a cultural difference for it to affect the country one way or another.
- and0 9y ago
  You know, HN usually slaps me on the wrist for insinuating that someone is a white nationalist, which is why I was pretty low key about it, so.. thanks for just coming out and admitting it, I guess?
  - cat199 9y ago
    stating that regional cultures have more or less similarities and would entail more or less cultural shift doesn't make one a 'white nationalist'.. which itself is a conveniently ambiguous phrase. FDR was white. FDR was nationalist. Was he a 'White Nationalist'? certainly not, but if he publicly held the same political positions he held less than a century before the label would more than likely be applied.
  - bischofs 9y ago
    Hot stuff champ, pulling the old white nationalist insult sure shut down the conversation didn't it. I guess you will sit in your camp and I will sit in mine; no reason to have a civil discussion about the complex topic of immigration.
  - sctb 9y ago
    Could you please stop the information-free provocation and just comment civilly and substantively, like we've asked many times before? We'd like not to ban the account, but that's what happens when this doesn't change. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- zeusk 9y ago
  The natives of US were pillaged by the European immigrants who arrived way prior to 1920s. Ironical, given Thanksgiving is a few weeks from now.
  - jquery 9y ago
    > natives of US were pillaged by the European immigrants Is that an argument for or against immigration by people with different cultural values?

damnyou 9y ago

> Why should those countries be okay with losing their top talent? What sort of thinking is this? People stopped being subjects of their countries a while ago. Countries should compete for people, not trap them. If a country isn't OK with losing its top talent it should fix its institutions to make itself competitive. You know what country doesn't allow its citizens to leave? North Korea. Besides, remittances are a thing.

bischofs 9y ago
I completely agree, countries should not trap people. But why is it "making it" in some countries to leave and go to America? Why not build up your own country and affect their living standards in a positive way? Personally I have no desire to leave my country because I like it and want to make it better. I think that is a healthy way to think about your identity.
- damnyou 9y ago
  > But why is it "making it" in some countries to leave and go to America? Why not build up your own country and affect their living standards in a positive way? Many reasons. * Because they'll be able to add more value to society in the other country. * Because they're part of a marginalized group and the other country has better protections for people like them. Maybe they can't get married in their home country but can in the other country, say. * Most importantly, because they might not want to. People should generally be free to do what they like, right? > I have no desire to leave my country because I like it and want to make it better. Great, sounds awesome! You're free to do as you desire. Others have different desires or constraints and should be free to do as they wish as well.
- vilmosi 9y ago
  >>> Why not build up your own country and affect their living standards in a positive way? I can answer that in a personal way. Because I don't care. The modern world is capitalist, especially with software. If your work is worth X dollars, why would you work for X/10 dollars? Because of nationalism?

lawtguy 9y ago

The 13% you mentioned I'm assuming is the percentage of the US population that is foreign born. That is not the highest in US history. Take a look at page 3 of this: https://www.census.gov/newsroom/pdf/cspan_fb_slides.pdf https://www.census.gov/newsroom/pdf/cspan_fb_slides.pdf (sorry for the PDF). You'll see that 13-14% foreign born was pretty much the norm from 1860-1920. The US society seemed to survive that just fine. To your point though, I suspect a lot of older voters grew up with much lower immigration (due to the Immigration Act of 1924) and so this level feels really high to them even though it was common for a large part of US history.

kamaal 9y ago

>>Why should those countries be okay with losing their top talent? They are not. But the people there have no options. In my country(India), despite a level of free market reforms, there is still a huge cancer of socialism at large. Socialist spending, affirmative action policies and corruption are extremely rampant. Public apathy is at peak. Almost anybody smart enough to make genuine difference has only one life style, where he/she has to earn all life to pay nearly 50% of all earned money in taxes and yet live a third world quality life. So there is only one option. Just immigrate and save yourself the trouble. >>How much immigration can a society take before it is unrecognizable to the people that live there. You might want to take a look at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus