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> [...] when he was pulled aside by customs and border protection agents who told him he was randomly selected for a security search > [...] Receipts from his

by Niten 16y ago

> [...] when he was pulled aside by customs and border protection agents who told him he was randomly selected for a security search > [...] Receipts from his bag were photocopied and his laptop was inspected but it's not clear in what manner, the sources said. Officials from the Immigration and Customs Enforcement and the U.S. Army then told him he was not under arrest but was being detained, the sources said. They asked questions about Wikileaks, asked for his opinions about the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and asked where Wikileaks founder Julian Assange is, but he declined to comment without a lawyer present, according to the sources. He was not permitted to make a phone call, they said. What's more worrisome to me is that doublespeak like nonrandom "random searches" and "not arrested but detained" — not to mention state officials imprisoning citizens and holding them up to some political litmus test over their opinions of our foreign wars while searching through their documents and confiscating their equipment without a warrant — has apparently become such a norm in the USA that even more open-minded news sources like Wired don't bother to question it.

vaksel 16y ago
yeah def has a feel of communist Russia
- rdtsc 16y ago
  Except that in Communist Russia he would have probably "disappeared" into some labor camp in Siberia. We are still far from that. However, at the same time, in Communist Russia nobody had the illusion that it was a free, open, morally superior country. All that propaganda bullshit was recognized as bullshit. Except for some old WWII veterans who believed in the "system", everyone in private knew it was all a spectacle. In case of the American society, the majority still think they live in a democracy, where they can do whatever they like, say whatever they like, that the government doesn't spy on them, doesn't put people on black lists, that searches are really "random" and so on. And I like how the FBI agents want to talk about "human rights". Wow! Such a cheap shot at creating rapport. They couldn't really come up with anything better !?
  - kragen 16y ago
    Except that in Communist Russia he would have probably "disappeared" into some labor camp in Siberia. We are still far from that. That's what happened to Maher Arar when his plane had to make an unplanned landing in the US a few years back. Except it wasn't a labor camp; it was just a Syrian prison, where he was tortured, for months. If he hadn't been able to send an SMS to his wife while he was being disappeared, and if he weren't completely innocent of any wrongdoing, he'd still be there. We have no way of knowing how many other people this has happened to.
    - rdtsc 16y ago
      That's a good example. Yeah I remember being shocked at the lack of media coverage and indignation over the case, also at other Americans' indifference to it all. I guess if you don't restrict my comment to just American citizens, then yes, we have crossed into the "fascist police state" territory a while back. > We have no way of knowing how many other people this has happened to. Very good point. We only know about the people who have "disappeared" unsuccessfully from the point of view of the ones doing the "disappearing". Of course the point is for there to not be any evidence. The better they are the harder it is to convincingly blame them.
pvg 16y ago
Immigration and Customs officials don't need a warrant to detain you (temporarily), search you, ask your questions or seize some or all of your luggage. This has always been the established norm as it is on the (controlled) borders of just about any country.
- Niten 16y ago
  Even to the extent that this is currently the norm, why is it OK? Why should state officials ever be allowed to interrogate U.S. citizens' political opinions, regardless of whether those citizens happen to be standing in an airport? It makes perfect sense that Customs be allowed to inspect physical items passengers bring through the airport, but what rationale says they should look through your computer files, especially in a post-Internet world? (I.e., there's no sense in claiming that you'll stop child pornography or other hot-topic illegal data entering the U.S. in an age where the Internet exists.)
  - pvg 16y ago
    Why is what OK? For law-enforcement personnel to ask you questions? Or search you? Both of these are established and legal and common. Saying they shouldn't be able to search your laptop because of the Internet is like suggesting police shouldn't check suspects in violent crimes for knives because of the availability of guns. Instead of making more vague regulations about what you can and can't be asked at the border, there is a very simple remedy for government agents asking you questions you don't want to answer - simply not answering. That's a legal right Jacob Appelbaum had no trouble taking advantage of.

by Niten 16y ago

vaksel 16y ago

yeah def has a feel of communist Russia

rdtsc 16y ago
Except that in Communist Russia he would have probably "disappeared" into some labor camp in Siberia. We are still far from that. However, at the same time, in Communist Russia nobody had the illusion that it was a free, open, morally superior country. All that propaganda bullshit was recognized as bullshit. Except for some old WWII veterans who believed in the "system", everyone in private knew it was all a spectacle. In case of the American society, the majority still think they live in a democracy, where they can do whatever they like, say whatever they like, that the government doesn't spy on them, doesn't put people on black lists, that searches are really "random" and so on. And I like how the FBI agents want to talk about "human rights". Wow! Such a cheap shot at creating rapport. They couldn't really come up with anything better !?
- kragen 16y ago
  Except that in Communist Russia he would have probably "disappeared" into some labor camp in Siberia. We are still far from that. That's what happened to Maher Arar when his plane had to make an unplanned landing in the US a few years back. Except it wasn't a labor camp; it was just a Syrian prison, where he was tortured, for months. If he hadn't been able to send an SMS to his wife while he was being disappeared, and if he weren't completely innocent of any wrongdoing, he'd still be there. We have no way of knowing how many other people this has happened to.
  - rdtsc 16y ago
    That's a good example. Yeah I remember being shocked at the lack of media coverage and indignation over the case, also at other Americans' indifference to it all. I guess if you don't restrict my comment to just American citizens, then yes, we have crossed into the "fascist police state" territory a while back. > We have no way of knowing how many other people this has happened to. Very good point. We only know about the people who have "disappeared" unsuccessfully from the point of view of the ones doing the "disappearing". Of course the point is for there to not be any evidence. The better they are the harder it is to convincingly blame them.

pvg 16y ago

Immigration and Customs officials don't need a warrant to detain you (temporarily), search you, ask your questions or seize some or all of your luggage. This has always been the established norm as it is on the (controlled) borders of just about any country.

Niten 16y ago
Even to the extent that this is currently the norm, why is it OK? Why should state officials ever be allowed to interrogate U.S. citizens' political opinions, regardless of whether those citizens happen to be standing in an airport? It makes perfect sense that Customs be allowed to inspect physical items passengers bring through the airport, but what rationale says they should look through your computer files, especially in a post-Internet world? (I.e., there's no sense in claiming that you'll stop child pornography or other hot-topic illegal data entering the U.S. in an age where the Internet exists.)
- pvg 16y ago
  Why is what OK? For law-enforcement personnel to ask you questions? Or search you? Both of these are established and legal and common. Saying they shouldn't be able to search your laptop because of the Internet is like suggesting police shouldn't check suspects in violent crimes for knives because of the availability of guns. Instead of making more vague regulations about what you can and can't be asked at the border, there is a very simple remedy for government agents asking you questions you don't want to answer - simply not answering. That's a legal right Jacob Appelbaum had no trouble taking advantage of.