9 ms·

Paleoconservatism/populism isn't concerned about the economic benefits of immigration; it's concerned about "protecting" culture so that immigrants don't have t

Paleoconservatism/populism isn't concerned about the economic benefits of immigration; it's concerned about "protecting" culture so that immigrants don't have the opportunity to reshape it in any capacity. A sizeable portion of Trump's base believes that they are in danger of becoming a minority in "their own" country and will sidestep the economic benefits of immigration to retain a demographic majority. To these voters, power and influence is a zero-sum game where the many exercise absolute reign over the few (constitutional equality be damned), and sharing the pie with immigrants puts them at risk of becoming the few.

majormajor 9y ago
What US Democrats ignore is that practically every damn country in the world does this too, often to a higher degree than the US. So there's a pragmatic question of how to avoid putting yourself at a disadvantage by being comparatively overgenerous that you don't have to be a "paleoconservative" or Trump supporter, or even Republican, to be concerned about.
- maxerickson 9y ago
  What disadvantage are you talking about?
  - majormajor 9y ago
    Generally churn factors. Stuff like importing young talent opening up further exposure to that talent moving on but also atrophying your in-country educational structures and investment. Kinda the societal version of "publish or perish" - always chasing just short-term dollars, without regard to long-term planning. If you want to import people to do the good jobs, but also want to ship the cheap jobs away, what happens to everyone squeezed out?
    - anigbrowl 9y ago
      We can retrain and redistribute resources to them, but for some reason the people who are most concerned about short term profits are the least willing to share them with others. You might like to ruminate on teh fact that while Trump demonizes immigrants out of one side of his mouth, the resort he owns at Mar-A-Lago- was able to get 70 H1-B visas to hire hotel staff, despite the availability of some 5000 such people in Florida's state employment opportunities database and a whole lot of US citizens in Puerto Rico that are in search of economic opportunity right about now. Not that you were making a partisan point, but this is a great example of how the rhetorical divisions in American politics do not line up with the business practices.
      - majormajor 9y ago
        Right, it's a partisan point but it shouldn't be. I know perfectly well Trump is often full of shit and do-what-I-say-not-what-I-do. But unpartisanifying the discussion of pros/cons of immigration vs outsourcing vs insourcing vs how to help other countries vs what to focus on in our own borders would be beneficial.
        anigbrowl 9y ago
        It might, but I can't help feeling you're assuming your conclusion a bit by treating migration as the problem. Maybe it's something else in the nature of the economic system. Other species seem to get OK without our hyper-territoriality.
- vostok 9y ago
  Many countries will grant you a visa so long as you make over a certain amount. This is much more open than the American lottery system.
  - learc83 9y ago
    https://www.uscis.gov/eb-5 https://www.uscis.gov/eb-5
    - vostok 9y ago
      I meant that they'll give you a visa if you make more than a certain amount not if you invest over a certain amount. I've now edited my comment.
      - learc83 9y ago
        Sorry, you said "so long as you pay over a certain amount", so I just took the comment at face value. >if you make more than a certain amount not if you invest over a certain amount. I don't know any developed countries with that system. Do you?
        vostok 9y ago
        Yes I've received job offers in developed countries under such schemes. There might have technically been other minimal requirements like knowing English or the local language, but most people who fulfill the pay requirements will fulfill the minor requirements too if applicable.
        learc83 9y ago
        Do those minor requirements include working in specific industries, and are contingent on specific types of job offers? If so that's not the same as an income requirement at all. If not, I'd like a list of them because that's very interesting.
        utobi 9y ago
- pmoriarty 9y ago
  "practically every damn country in the world does this too, often to a higher degree than the US. So there's a pragmatic question of how to avoid putting yourself at a disadvantage by being comparatively overgenerous..." A disadvantage or an advantage? It's always seemed to me that people from other countries and cultures contributed very positively to what the US is today.
  - majormajor 9y ago
    Nothing is purely good or bad at every level. One thing that gets somewhat ignored for political reasons is assimilation/integration. Of course there was never a purely smooth, even, perfect melting pot, and there's a large history of enclaves in America, but today there are parties taking that to a prescriptive rule of "don't culturally appropriate" that feels self-defeating (and just dumb, frankly). There's also room for a discussion of what good qualities to explicitly promote adoption of for shared values, etc.
- akhilcacharya 9y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism
  - majormajor 9y ago
    That's not what that means, unless you're using it differently than it sounds. My claim is that the US is not unique, is not a special magical land, but is only as good or as bad as we make it, and no citizen of any country should ignore their own agency in helping shape those paths.
- cat199 9y ago
  By modern dem logic, JFK would be a facist - nationalistic, america-first policies - socially conservative - womanizing - served in military - against homosexuals - wanted to get rid of the fed - invaded other countries to fight communism
  - jacquesm 9y ago
    None of those are uniquely fascist, just like breathing isn't. You're missing an 's' there. To make life a bit easier and to focus the discussion here is an easy to digest page on the subject: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism If after reading that you still feel that JFK would be a fascist then I don't know what to do next.
    - cat199 9y ago
      way to be pedantic about spelling and miss the point.. I said "By modern dem logic, JFK would be a facist" now, thankfully corrected to: "By modern dem logic, JFK would be a fascist" not that I actually believed him to be a facscist. glad you caught that 1 letter spelling typo though..
  - pcwalton 9y ago
    What on Earth does most of this list have to do with the article or this discussion? This is the kind of thing that I would expect to see from Pepe avatars on Twitter, not HN.
    - cat199 9y ago
      responding to OP who said: " What US Democrats ignore is that practically every damn country in the world does this too, often to a higher degree than the US. So there's a pragmatic question of how to avoid putting yourself at a disadvantage by being comparatively overgenerous that you don't have to be a "paleoconservative" or Trump supporter, or even Republican, to be concerned about. " my point is that things have shifted, and is perfectly in line with the parent which has +1 vote and was not considered a 'troll'.. line-of-discusison kthx.
- mywittyname 9y ago
  Are other countries really overly generous? I'm only (vaguely) familiar with Canada, having worked with several Canadian immigrants, and the impression I get is that Canada is dead simple to immigrate to. So much so that there are suburbs of Toronto with so many Chinese immigrants that there are strip malls where all of the street signs are written in Chinese. https://www.google.com/maps/@43.8408304,-79.398378,3a,53.5y,31.23h,96.17t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sZtBEIrChRI6BJOnG7Z-1mg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 https://www.google.com/maps/@43.8408304,-79.398378,3a,53.5y,...
contergan 9y ago
> A sizeable portion of Trump's base believes that they are in danger of becoming a minority in "their own" country Well, they'd be correct, wouldn't they? People of European ancestry, once making up 90% of the country, are set to become a minority around 2040 now IIRC. And arguably the United States were originally conceived to be an outpost of Europe, so the "their own" country thing seems to be a reasonable assessment, too.
gozur88 9y ago
>A sizeable portion of Trump's base believes that they are in danger of becoming a minority in "their own" country... Why did you put scare quotes around "their own"? Is it not their own country? Culture changes over time no matter what you do, but is it completely unreasonable to want your culture to change slowly enough that you can still function in your dotage?
- edbrown23 9y ago
  This is such an interesting topic that is extremely difficult to discuss as people on both sides rapidly devolve to name calling. There's this[0] episode of This American Life which discusses some of this, but I haven't found many others. The point of linking that is only to question whether there are people who want their culture to change more slowly for reasons other than prejudice. Should "obviously wrong" dramatic cultural shifts like gay marriage somehow be slowed so people can get used to the idea? Even in the linked example, there are clearly other forces at work (anti-Muslim propaganda) which seem to exist purely to make it appear that the culture itself is changing entirely, when in reality it's just becoming more mixed race. [0] https://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/600/will-i-know-anyone-at-this-party https://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/600/...
- Terr_ 9y ago
  > Why did you put scare quotes around "their own"? Is it not their own country? I think the quotes are to suggest that those voters habitually overestimate their share of ownership, compared to everyone else in the country. For clearer and not-political example, consider the average cat and "their house". It is true that they are a legitimate and valued member of the household... But the quotes suggest something about the way the cat sees the world.
- anigbrowl 9y ago
  We could put them on reservations or something where they can enjoy their simpler way of life undisturbed by the forces of progress.
  - gozur88 9y ago
kamaal 9y ago
>>A sizeable portion of Trump's base believes that they are in danger of becoming a minority in "their own" country and will sidestep the economic benefits of immigration to retain a demographic majority. Actually they are simply pissed at that fact- since the end of slavery and colonialism, life has gotten simply too hard. Also you have to live in the situation now where you are continually reminded you are no racial superman, and some one you thought was way beneath your station is now routinely beating you in highly intellectual activities. This is not new to the US. Bulk of Indias current social friction problems happen because the previously lower caste people are doing well off in life now. Now economy might be a growing pie on the longer run, but on the shorter run, its just competition for limited resources at the end. If you previously were a upper caste person albeit not very capable, you could still succeed easily, given only your castes were allowed to study and prosper. Today with more people having an opportunity to compete, you just don't stand a chance. Now imagine being a upper caste person who only until recently had to merely exist to succeed to now having to compete and routinely be beaten by people whom you think are beneath you. Things don't work well. To those seasoned to privilege, equality feels like oppression - Internet Quote
sheepmullet 9y ago
> A sizeable portion of Trump's base believes that they are in danger of becoming a minority in "their own" country The key question is: are they right? Why would you hand over the keys to your kingdom to people who will displace you and rule against you?

majormajor 9y ago

What US Democrats ignore is that practically every damn country in the world does this too, often to a higher degree than the US. So there's a pragmatic question of how to avoid putting yourself at a disadvantage by being comparatively overgenerous that you don't have to be a "paleoconservative" or Trump supporter, or even Republican, to be concerned about.

maxerickson 9y ago
What disadvantage are you talking about?
- majormajor 9y ago
  Generally churn factors. Stuff like importing young talent opening up further exposure to that talent moving on but also atrophying your in-country educational structures and investment. Kinda the societal version of "publish or perish" - always chasing just short-term dollars, without regard to long-term planning. If you want to import people to do the good jobs, but also want to ship the cheap jobs away, what happens to everyone squeezed out?
  - anigbrowl 9y ago
    We can retrain and redistribute resources to them, but for some reason the people who are most concerned about short term profits are the least willing to share them with others. You might like to ruminate on teh fact that while Trump demonizes immigrants out of one side of his mouth, the resort he owns at Mar-A-Lago- was able to get 70 H1-B visas to hire hotel staff, despite the availability of some 5000 such people in Florida's state employment opportunities database and a whole lot of US citizens in Puerto Rico that are in search of economic opportunity right about now. Not that you were making a partisan point, but this is a great example of how the rhetorical divisions in American politics do not line up with the business practices.
    - majormajor 9y ago
      Right, it's a partisan point but it shouldn't be. I know perfectly well Trump is often full of shit and do-what-I-say-not-what-I-do. But unpartisanifying the discussion of pros/cons of immigration vs outsourcing vs insourcing vs how to help other countries vs what to focus on in our own borders would be beneficial.
      - anigbrowl 9y ago
        It might, but I can't help feeling you're assuming your conclusion a bit by treating migration as the problem. Maybe it's something else in the nature of the economic system. Other species seem to get OK without our hyper-territoriality.
vostok 9y ago
Many countries will grant you a visa so long as you make over a certain amount. This is much more open than the American lottery system.
- learc83 9y ago
  https://www.uscis.gov/eb-5 https://www.uscis.gov/eb-5
  - vostok 9y ago
    I meant that they'll give you a visa if you make more than a certain amount not if you invest over a certain amount. I've now edited my comment.
    - learc83 9y ago
      Sorry, you said "so long as you pay over a certain amount", so I just took the comment at face value. >if you make more than a certain amount not if you invest over a certain amount. I don't know any developed countries with that system. Do you?
      - vostok 9y ago
        Yes I've received job offers in developed countries under such schemes. There might have technically been other minimal requirements like knowing English or the local language, but most people who fulfill the pay requirements will fulfill the minor requirements too if applicable.
        learc83 9y ago
        Do those minor requirements include working in specific industries, and are contingent on specific types of job offers? If so that's not the same as an income requirement at all. If not, I'd like a list of them because that's very interesting.
      - utobi 9y ago
pmoriarty 9y ago
"practically every damn country in the world does this too, often to a higher degree than the US. So there's a pragmatic question of how to avoid putting yourself at a disadvantage by being comparatively overgenerous..." A disadvantage or an advantage? It's always seemed to me that people from other countries and cultures contributed very positively to what the US is today.
- majormajor 9y ago
  Nothing is purely good or bad at every level. One thing that gets somewhat ignored for political reasons is assimilation/integration. Of course there was never a purely smooth, even, perfect melting pot, and there's a large history of enclaves in America, but today there are parties taking that to a prescriptive rule of "don't culturally appropriate" that feels self-defeating (and just dumb, frankly). There's also room for a discussion of what good qualities to explicitly promote adoption of for shared values, etc.
akhilcacharya 9y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism
- majormajor 9y ago
  That's not what that means, unless you're using it differently than it sounds. My claim is that the US is not unique, is not a special magical land, but is only as good or as bad as we make it, and no citizen of any country should ignore their own agency in helping shape those paths.
cat199 9y ago
By modern dem logic, JFK would be a facist - nationalistic, america-first policies - socially conservative - womanizing - served in military - against homosexuals - wanted to get rid of the fed - invaded other countries to fight communism
- jacquesm 9y ago
  None of those are uniquely fascist, just like breathing isn't. You're missing an 's' there. To make life a bit easier and to focus the discussion here is an easy to digest page on the subject: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism If after reading that you still feel that JFK would be a fascist then I don't know what to do next.
  - cat199 9y ago
    way to be pedantic about spelling and miss the point.. I said "By modern dem logic, JFK would be a facist" now, thankfully corrected to: "By modern dem logic, JFK would be a fascist" not that I actually believed him to be a facscist. glad you caught that 1 letter spelling typo though..
- pcwalton 9y ago
  What on Earth does most of this list have to do with the article or this discussion? This is the kind of thing that I would expect to see from Pepe avatars on Twitter, not HN.
  - cat199 9y ago
    responding to OP who said: " What US Democrats ignore is that practically every damn country in the world does this too, often to a higher degree than the US. So there's a pragmatic question of how to avoid putting yourself at a disadvantage by being comparatively overgenerous that you don't have to be a "paleoconservative" or Trump supporter, or even Republican, to be concerned about. " my point is that things have shifted, and is perfectly in line with the parent which has +1 vote and was not considered a 'troll'.. line-of-discusison kthx.
mywittyname 9y ago
Are other countries really overly generous? I'm only (vaguely) familiar with Canada, having worked with several Canadian immigrants, and the impression I get is that Canada is dead simple to immigrate to. So much so that there are suburbs of Toronto with so many Chinese immigrants that there are strip malls where all of the street signs are written in Chinese. https://www.google.com/maps/@43.8408304,-79.398378,3a,53.5y,31.23h,96.17t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sZtBEIrChRI6BJOnG7Z-1mg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 https://www.google.com/maps/@43.8408304,-79.398378,3a,53.5y,...

contergan 9y ago

> A sizeable portion of Trump's base believes that they are in danger of becoming a minority in "their own" country Well, they'd be correct, wouldn't they? People of European ancestry, once making up 90% of the country, are set to become a minority around 2040 now IIRC. And arguably the United States were originally conceived to be an outpost of Europe, so the "their own" country thing seems to be a reasonable assessment, too.

gozur88 9y ago

>A sizeable portion of Trump's base believes that they are in danger of becoming a minority in "their own" country... Why did you put scare quotes around "their own"? Is it not their own country? Culture changes over time no matter what you do, but is it completely unreasonable to want your culture to change slowly enough that you can still function in your dotage?

edbrown23 9y ago
This is such an interesting topic that is extremely difficult to discuss as people on both sides rapidly devolve to name calling. There's this[0] episode of This American Life which discusses some of this, but I haven't found many others. The point of linking that is only to question whether there are people who want their culture to change more slowly for reasons other than prejudice. Should "obviously wrong" dramatic cultural shifts like gay marriage somehow be slowed so people can get used to the idea? Even in the linked example, there are clearly other forces at work (anti-Muslim propaganda) which seem to exist purely to make it appear that the culture itself is changing entirely, when in reality it's just becoming more mixed race. [0] https://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/600/will-i-know-anyone-at-this-party https://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/600/...
Terr_ 9y ago
> Why did you put scare quotes around "their own"? Is it not their own country? I think the quotes are to suggest that those voters habitually overestimate their share of ownership, compared to everyone else in the country. For clearer and not-political example, consider the average cat and "their house". It is true that they are a legitimate and valued member of the household... But the quotes suggest something about the way the cat sees the world.
anigbrowl 9y ago
We could put them on reservations or something where they can enjoy their simpler way of life undisturbed by the forces of progress.
- gozur88 9y ago

kamaal 9y ago

>>A sizeable portion of Trump's base believes that they are in danger of becoming a minority in "their own" country and will sidestep the economic benefits of immigration to retain a demographic majority. Actually they are simply pissed at that fact- since the end of slavery and colonialism, life has gotten simply too hard. Also you have to live in the situation now where you are continually reminded you are no racial superman, and some one you thought was way beneath your station is now routinely beating you in highly intellectual activities. This is not new to the US. Bulk of Indias current social friction problems happen because the previously lower caste people are doing well off in life now. Now economy might be a growing pie on the longer run, but on the shorter run, its just competition for limited resources at the end. If you previously were a upper caste person albeit not very capable, you could still succeed easily, given only your castes were allowed to study and prosper. Today with more people having an opportunity to compete, you just don't stand a chance. Now imagine being a upper caste person who only until recently had to merely exist to succeed to now having to compete and routinely be beaten by people whom you think are beneath you. Things don't work well. To those seasoned to privilege, equality feels like oppression - Internet Quote

sheepmullet 9y ago

> A sizeable portion of Trump's base believes that they are in danger of becoming a minority in "their own" country The key question is: are they right? Why would you hand over the keys to your kingdom to people who will displace you and rule against you?