4 ms·

You do, in fact, have a choice, you always did, everyone does. There are decent, completely offline solutions (Libreoffice vs GDocs), you can self-host a lot of

by pmlnr 9y ago

You do, in fact, have a choice, you always did, everyone does. There are decent, completely offline solutions (Libreoffice vs GDocs), you can self-host a lot of things and do a private "cloud" on a Raspberry Pi or an old laptop (https://yunohost.org/#/ https://yunohost.org/#/ ; https://cloudron.io/ https://cloudron.io/ ; etc). The tradeoff is compatibility and not being trendy. However, that has always been a problem both the 80s and the 90s. Mac vs PC? Amiga vs anything? A lot has changed since and a lot has become more comfortable. It slower, more complicated, much more annoying. But you do have the power to simply stop using whatever you dislike[1]. So: don't buy from google. Build you own cloud. If you don't like the application or if it's instable (atom), use something stable (vim?). It _will_ be uncomfortable, but it's there. [1] I'm well aware the cost of, for example, refusing to use Facebook, but you still can refuse to use it, whereas life without WeChat in Asia is becoming near impossible. EDIT: Sorry for possible misunderstandings, I mixed up 3 different topics in a way too short answer. My point is: there are alternatives, there are choices. You don't like the user interface of something, protest: use something else. There _are_ options, but they are not the most visible, not the most comfortable choices, and many of them will involve setting services up for yourself.

geofft 9y ago
> There are decent, completely offline solutions (Libreoffice vs GDocs) LibreOffice is slow. On a ~2010 business-class Dell laptop that still is in perfectly good physical condition, running Debian 9, with a handful of tabs in Firefox and a mosh running: adamantoise:~ geofft$ time libreoffice --terminate_after_init real 0m8.103s user 0m1.696s sys 0m0.520s The rant here isn't about cloud vs. local, it's about performance and functionality. We had the cloud in the late 1980s, it was called dialing up to a mainframe, and it worked fine because software was designed to be fast in the presence of slow (by today's standards) connections. One of the examples of that -- library card catalogs running on amber-screen terminal -- was explicitly brought up in the rant.
- pmlnr 9y ago
  re 1: Slow - compared to google docs? Are you serious? EDIT: not startup time, who cares about startup time? When you load a few hundred pages doc, or a massive excel. re 2: I only wanted to give examples, but you're right, my wording is off. I wanted to say there are fast and good interfaces: there's vim for the terminal, there's Rainloop for webmail, miniflux for RSS reading - these are all keyboard-oriented ones, all working decently and as fast as they can. In case of web-connected ones, the speed of going back and forth is certainly an issue. Local - as in not making connections on the network - in my opinion, will always have a speed advantage though.
  - etherealG 9y ago
    re 1: Slow - compared to google docs? Are you serious? I can't speak for the poster above yours, but I would be serious. In my experience, on the startup time, google docs way out performs open office. It's open in single digit seconds, open office is 10s+ I still prefer offline software, but the bloat can be awful. At least web tech is designed with web browsing latency expectation. I find most desktop software these days has a much larger start and use latency by far.
  - geofft 9y ago
    > re 1: Slow - compared to google docs? Are you serious? Slow compared to decent standards of what a word processor needs. For reference, WordPad perceptually opens instantly for me, and has felt like it opened instantly since Windows 95, I'm pretty sure. I am saying that both LibreOffice and Google Docs are examples of software that take way too long to do simple things because they're busy doing complicated things that I don't actually care for. (And arguably this isn't really their fault per se, they're both designed to compete with / follow the expectations set by Microsoft Office of what an office suite is, and those expectations are that all the complicated things are available). > Local - as in not making connections on the network - in my opinion, will always have a speed advantage though. Depends what you're doing with the network. I do just about all of my work in the terminal with a mosh connection to a cheap server a couple hundred miles away, and I never feel perceptual slowness from my machine not being local, unless I am literally in the subway or in an elevator. And I actually gain a lot of perceptual speed because I can close my laptop and switch to my phone instantly and see the exact screen where I was. If you're streaming binaries from the network or trying to pump animations on a 2048-by-1536 true-color retina display, yes, remote is going to be slow. Half the tweetstorm's point is that you shouldn't be designing software to need that in the first place.
- pizza234 9y ago
  > LibreOffice is slow. On a ~2010 business-class Dell laptop that still is in perfectly good physical condition, running Debian 9, with a handful of tabs in Firefox and a mosh running: Libreoffice is monolithically designed, as shouldn't be representative of the generic performance of modern software. The reason is that StarOffice was envisioned as desktop environment, therefore, all the components of the suite are loaded on the first startup. $ libreoffice --writer & $ time libreoffice --calc --terminate_after_init real 0m0.104s user 0m0.016s sys 0m0.008s If anything should be compared, then Microsoft Office should be used, as it always had a very fast startup (AFAIK, due to components preloading). I think the article is very misguided; the problem is in the expectation that anything should be faster, even in contexts that are implicitly slower (networks, i.e. internet), or with features that will inevitably slow down the experience (e.g. browser plugins). Using as reference the slowest software - Libreoffice, Atom, Firefox - is nothing else than cherry-picking. In this perspective, a sibling article is correct - if you want faster alternatives, you have them.
slaman 9y ago
Not everyone it prepared to host, maintain and secure a server cluster of OSS.
- pmlnr 9y ago
  Having a choice is not a thing for granted. You need to work for it. You need to maintain the right to it. Those who are not prepared, learn it, or live with whatever is provided by others.
  - s73ver_ 9y ago
    This really does smack of elitism. Not everyone simply has the time to do that.
  - Bartweiss 9y ago
    This argument generalizes to everything, though. Do you not like owning a car/tractor/printer running proprietary software that you're not permitted to modify? I guess you should have bought a 20 year old version and upgraded it yourself. Do you want a choice of food that you trust won't make you sick? Then you probably should have worked for that lettuce from planting to harvest, not just complained about safety standards. Total independence from the actions of others isn't impossible, but no one posting comments online is practicing it. And if "working for it" can include learning to use solutions other people have built, then it can also include writing this article on what's change and what's missing. If you live in a society, talking about your preferences isn't an alternative to working for them, it's part of that work.
    - pmlnr 9y ago
      I merely stated you need to do, act, work for choices and for freedom. Expecting freedom of choice for granted is spoilt belief.
cosatelo 9y ago
If you follow popular technology you get a slow stream of annoying technology thats predatory by nature. When I switched to the free software side, my experience sped up and I had finer control over everything. My files are mine and not a company's, non-free javascript is disabled so the web is faster, and my system is lightning fast since its devoid of windows telemetry. Encryption keys and offline password managers can be a hassle but the freedom overshadows the difficulty for me. Or maybe its stallman stockholm syndrome.

by pmlnr 9y ago

geofft 9y ago

> There are decent, completely offline solutions (Libreoffice vs GDocs) LibreOffice is slow. On a ~2010 business-class Dell laptop that still is in perfectly good physical condition, running Debian 9, with a handful of tabs in Firefox and a mosh running: adamantoise:~ geofft$ time libreoffice --terminate_after_init real 0m8.103s user 0m1.696s sys 0m0.520s The rant here isn't about cloud vs. local, it's about performance and functionality. We had the cloud in the late 1980s, it was called dialing up to a mainframe, and it worked fine because software was designed to be fast in the presence of slow (by today's standards) connections. One of the examples of that -- library card catalogs running on amber-screen terminal -- was explicitly brought up in the rant.

pmlnr 9y ago
re 1: Slow - compared to google docs? Are you serious? EDIT: not startup time, who cares about startup time? When you load a few hundred pages doc, or a massive excel. re 2: I only wanted to give examples, but you're right, my wording is off. I wanted to say there are fast and good interfaces: there's vim for the terminal, there's Rainloop for webmail, miniflux for RSS reading - these are all keyboard-oriented ones, all working decently and as fast as they can. In case of web-connected ones, the speed of going back and forth is certainly an issue. Local - as in not making connections on the network - in my opinion, will always have a speed advantage though.
- etherealG 9y ago
  re 1: Slow - compared to google docs? Are you serious? I can't speak for the poster above yours, but I would be serious. In my experience, on the startup time, google docs way out performs open office. It's open in single digit seconds, open office is 10s+ I still prefer offline software, but the bloat can be awful. At least web tech is designed with web browsing latency expectation. I find most desktop software these days has a much larger start and use latency by far.
- geofft 9y ago
  > re 1: Slow - compared to google docs? Are you serious? Slow compared to decent standards of what a word processor needs. For reference, WordPad perceptually opens instantly for me, and has felt like it opened instantly since Windows 95, I'm pretty sure. I am saying that both LibreOffice and Google Docs are examples of software that take way too long to do simple things because they're busy doing complicated things that I don't actually care for. (And arguably this isn't really their fault per se, they're both designed to compete with / follow the expectations set by Microsoft Office of what an office suite is, and those expectations are that all the complicated things are available). > Local - as in not making connections on the network - in my opinion, will always have a speed advantage though. Depends what you're doing with the network. I do just about all of my work in the terminal with a mosh connection to a cheap server a couple hundred miles away, and I never feel perceptual slowness from my machine not being local, unless I am literally in the subway or in an elevator. And I actually gain a lot of perceptual speed because I can close my laptop and switch to my phone instantly and see the exact screen where I was. If you're streaming binaries from the network or trying to pump animations on a 2048-by-1536 true-color retina display, yes, remote is going to be slow. Half the tweetstorm's point is that you shouldn't be designing software to need that in the first place.
pizza234 9y ago
> LibreOffice is slow. On a ~2010 business-class Dell laptop that still is in perfectly good physical condition, running Debian 9, with a handful of tabs in Firefox and a mosh running: Libreoffice is monolithically designed, as shouldn't be representative of the generic performance of modern software. The reason is that StarOffice was envisioned as desktop environment, therefore, all the components of the suite are loaded on the first startup. $ libreoffice --writer & $ time libreoffice --calc --terminate_after_init real 0m0.104s user 0m0.016s sys 0m0.008s If anything should be compared, then Microsoft Office should be used, as it always had a very fast startup (AFAIK, due to components preloading). I think the article is very misguided; the problem is in the expectation that anything should be faster, even in contexts that are implicitly slower (networks, i.e. internet), or with features that will inevitably slow down the experience (e.g. browser plugins). Using as reference the slowest software - Libreoffice, Atom, Firefox - is nothing else than cherry-picking. In this perspective, a sibling article is correct - if you want faster alternatives, you have them.

slaman 9y ago

Not everyone it prepared to host, maintain and secure a server cluster of OSS.

pmlnr 9y ago
Having a choice is not a thing for granted. You need to work for it. You need to maintain the right to it. Those who are not prepared, learn it, or live with whatever is provided by others.
- s73ver_ 9y ago
  This really does smack of elitism. Not everyone simply has the time to do that.
- Bartweiss 9y ago
  This argument generalizes to everything, though. Do you not like owning a car/tractor/printer running proprietary software that you're not permitted to modify? I guess you should have bought a 20 year old version and upgraded it yourself. Do you want a choice of food that you trust won't make you sick? Then you probably should have worked for that lettuce from planting to harvest, not just complained about safety standards. Total independence from the actions of others isn't impossible, but no one posting comments online is practicing it. And if "working for it" can include learning to use solutions other people have built, then it can also include writing this article on what's change and what's missing. If you live in a society, talking about your preferences isn't an alternative to working for them, it's part of that work.
  - pmlnr 9y ago
    I merely stated you need to do, act, work for choices and for freedom. Expecting freedom of choice for granted is spoilt belief.

cosatelo 9y ago

If you follow popular technology you get a slow stream of annoying technology thats predatory by nature. When I switched to the free software side, my experience sped up and I had finer control over everything. My files are mine and not a company's, non-free javascript is disabled so the web is faster, and my system is lightning fast since its devoid of windows telemetry. Encryption keys and offline password managers can be a hassle but the freedom overshadows the difficulty for me. Or maybe its stallman stockholm syndrome.