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These articles about how much energy Bitcoin uses never mention the value it provides - it's a secure way to make financial transactions internationally with ze

These articles about how much energy Bitcoin uses never mention the value it provides - it's a secure way to make financial transactions internationally with zero trust, relatively (compared to most other current methods) low fees and high speed. There are other ways, like the banking system, but they have their own costs associated with the security of the transactions, and their guarantees are backed by government, which don't always agree with you. Maybe this kind of system is worth burning a lot of electricity for. It seems like the market is saying that it is.

virtuexru 9y ago
Exactly. This is the crucial point all of these people seem to miss. There is all kinds of other egregious waste (electrical and otherwise) going on in the world, how is this any worse than say millions of computer's online/burning power to play DoTA for instance (sorry MOBA fans, nothing personal. using it bc it has an enormous player base). It's a weird comparison but it gets the point across. Plus, relatively speaking.. an entire year to power the country of Ecuador is the same amount of energy it takes to power the Bitcoin blockchain for a year doesn't seem that "wasteful" considering how many lives Bitcoin has changed & the miracle of being able to send up to $x,xxx,xxx USD (or any other currency) around the world, confirmed in less than 10 minutes for a paltry fee of ~$5. I'm not sure why but there is a clear bias on HN regarding most Bitcoin articles. This is just my opinion; take it with a grain of salt.
- evanlivingston 9y ago
  Can you talk more about the lives Bitcoin has changed? Are you referring to people using it for black market transactions or are you referring to speculators?
  - virtuexru 9y ago
    By the way you asked the question I can already sense your clear bias. I'll answer you however. Countries where the currency is inflating at enormous rates, countries where the banking system is corrupt/out of date/not functioning, Bitcoin has changed these people's lives. Venezuela would be a good example from this year: https://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2017/02/03/why-venezuelas-currency-crisis-is-a-case-study-for-bitcoin/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2017/02/03/why-venezue...
    - root_axis 9y ago
      This is a myth. I can tell you from first-hand experience that bitcoin is not changing lives in Venezuela (at least not on a noteworthy scale). Practically nobody accepts bitcoin in exchange for food and services and many of the rural regions that are hit the hardest by the failing economy don't even have reliable access to internet. This idea that bitcoin is somehow aiding the impoverished is the height of technocratic arrogance.
    - evanlivingston 9y ago
      I don't see proof anyone has been helped. The article points out that Venezuelan Bitcoin users rose to 85,000 users in 2016 and that a travel agency in Venezuela only accepts Bitcoin. The article also says Bitcoin is useful for buying stuff from online retailers. I believe the larger systematic problem with corrupt and non functioning economic instruments is not their corruptability but rather the structures that promote and rely upon on corruption which Bitcoin doesn't appear to resolve.
- disconnected 9y ago
  > the miracle of being able to send up to $x,xxx,xxx USD (or any other currency) around the world, confirmed in less than 10 minutes for a paltry fee of ~$5. That's a miracle? I've ordered physical products from all over the world - China, USA, Europe, India - and the payment confirmation always a) took just a few seconds and b) cost me just a few cents. I also rarely bring cash with me, and pay most things with debit card. After punching in the PIN, the confirmation takes about 2 seconds to be printed. I'm happy, the seller is happy, we all carry on with our lives. I don't know what it looks like on the receiving side, but I routinely buy games from GOG and Steam and they immediately let me know that "payment has been confirmed" after a purchase is made, so I am assuming that they see the confirmation of the transaction on their side immediately. The only miracle I see here is how somehow $5 and 10 minutes per transfer is considered a great leap forward in efficiency. Certainly bitcoin brings a lot to the table, but efficiency, so far, isn't it.
hencq 9y ago
Well the market also says it's worth burning a lot of fossil fuels to move around and heat our houses. The market is just not great at factoring in negative externalities. As for the other things, most people don't use Bitcoin as a secure way to make financial transactions at all. In fact it seems to be mainly used for speculation. And when it does get used for transactions, it's mainly for crime. Turns out most people are actually fine trusting an institution like a bank when making transactions. Bitcoin is a really cool solution looking for a problem to solve it seems.
- jerkstate 9y ago
  I'm not sure what your point is. Are you saying that we should not heat our houses or move around?
  - hencq 9y ago
    All I'm saying is that just because the market might prefer to burn lots of coal to do so, that might not actually have the best outcome for society.
make3 9y ago
let's be honest, mostly it only serves to buy guns, pills & dodge taxes
beefield 9y ago
Just to note, financial transactions from bank account to bank account are slow and expensive compared to other methods. Even with BTC -> BTC transactions, there are much faster options, and if you claim they are cheap, you must take into account that there is an implicit cost of holding an volatile asset (even if lately that volatility has been beneficial for the asset holder).
vilmosi 9y ago
>>> Maybe this kind of system is worth burning a lot of electricity for. It seems like the market is saying that it is. But it seems to me people aren't using Bitcoin for that, they're using it more as an investment. Whatever sets the value of Bitcoin, it's not because it's a competitor to Western Union and the likes.

virtuexru 9y ago

Exactly. This is the crucial point all of these people seem to miss. There is all kinds of other egregious waste (electrical and otherwise) going on in the world, how is this any worse than say millions of computer's online/burning power to play DoTA for instance (sorry MOBA fans, nothing personal. using it bc it has an enormous player base). It's a weird comparison but it gets the point across. Plus, relatively speaking.. an entire year to power the country of Ecuador is the same amount of energy it takes to power the Bitcoin blockchain for a year doesn't seem that "wasteful" considering how many lives Bitcoin has changed & the miracle of being able to send up to $x,xxx,xxx USD (or any other currency) around the world, confirmed in less than 10 minutes for a paltry fee of ~$5. I'm not sure why but there is a clear bias on HN regarding most Bitcoin articles. This is just my opinion; take it with a grain of salt.

evanlivingston 9y ago
Can you talk more about the lives Bitcoin has changed? Are you referring to people using it for black market transactions or are you referring to speculators?
- virtuexru 9y ago
  By the way you asked the question I can already sense your clear bias. I'll answer you however. Countries where the currency is inflating at enormous rates, countries where the banking system is corrupt/out of date/not functioning, Bitcoin has changed these people's lives. Venezuela would be a good example from this year: https://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2017/02/03/why-venezuelas-currency-crisis-is-a-case-study-for-bitcoin/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2017/02/03/why-venezue...
  - root_axis 9y ago
    This is a myth. I can tell you from first-hand experience that bitcoin is not changing lives in Venezuela (at least not on a noteworthy scale). Practically nobody accepts bitcoin in exchange for food and services and many of the rural regions that are hit the hardest by the failing economy don't even have reliable access to internet. This idea that bitcoin is somehow aiding the impoverished is the height of technocratic arrogance.
  - evanlivingston 9y ago
    I don't see proof anyone has been helped. The article points out that Venezuelan Bitcoin users rose to 85,000 users in 2016 and that a travel agency in Venezuela only accepts Bitcoin. The article also says Bitcoin is useful for buying stuff from online retailers. I believe the larger systematic problem with corrupt and non functioning economic instruments is not their corruptability but rather the structures that promote and rely upon on corruption which Bitcoin doesn't appear to resolve.
disconnected 9y ago
> the miracle of being able to send up to $x,xxx,xxx USD (or any other currency) around the world, confirmed in less than 10 minutes for a paltry fee of ~$5. That's a miracle? I've ordered physical products from all over the world - China, USA, Europe, India - and the payment confirmation always a) took just a few seconds and b) cost me just a few cents. I also rarely bring cash with me, and pay most things with debit card. After punching in the PIN, the confirmation takes about 2 seconds to be printed. I'm happy, the seller is happy, we all carry on with our lives. I don't know what it looks like on the receiving side, but I routinely buy games from GOG and Steam and they immediately let me know that "payment has been confirmed" after a purchase is made, so I am assuming that they see the confirmation of the transaction on their side immediately. The only miracle I see here is how somehow $5 and 10 minutes per transfer is considered a great leap forward in efficiency. Certainly bitcoin brings a lot to the table, but efficiency, so far, isn't it.

hencq 9y ago

Well the market also says it's worth burning a lot of fossil fuels to move around and heat our houses. The market is just not great at factoring in negative externalities. As for the other things, most people don't use Bitcoin as a secure way to make financial transactions at all. In fact it seems to be mainly used for speculation. And when it does get used for transactions, it's mainly for crime. Turns out most people are actually fine trusting an institution like a bank when making transactions. Bitcoin is a really cool solution looking for a problem to solve it seems.

jerkstate 9y ago
I'm not sure what your point is. Are you saying that we should not heat our houses or move around?
- hencq 9y ago
  All I'm saying is that just because the market might prefer to burn lots of coal to do so, that might not actually have the best outcome for society.

make3 9y ago

let's be honest, mostly it only serves to buy guns, pills & dodge taxes

beefield 9y ago

Just to note, financial transactions from bank account to bank account are slow and expensive compared to other methods. Even with BTC -> BTC transactions, there are much faster options, and if you claim they are cheap, you must take into account that there is an implicit cost of holding an volatile asset (even if lately that volatility has been beneficial for the asset holder).

vilmosi 9y ago

>>> Maybe this kind of system is worth burning a lot of electricity for. It seems like the market is saying that it is. But it seems to me people aren't using Bitcoin for that, they're using it more as an investment. Whatever sets the value of Bitcoin, it's not because it's a competitor to Western Union and the likes.