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This! I once took over programming a point of sale system that our (internal to the company) users were complaining about. Turns out there was no concept of t

This! I once took over programming a point of sale system that our (internal to the company) users were complaining about. Turns out there was no concept of tab sequence, you had to use the mouse for everything. I asked the previous programmer to show me how to use the form he created, and he started typing a phone number using the top row of the keyboard instead of the numpad. But hey, it had lots of javascript!

mattmanser 9y ago
To be fair, I only started using the numpad after I had a temp job in data entry. I hate laptops that don't have them now, but seeing as a lot of laptops cut them off, most people can't think num pads are that important. Not paying attention to tab order in an enterprise app is a cardinal sin though.
- protomyth 9y ago
  When we bought MacBooks I bought a bunch of USB numeric keypads to plug in to their desktop monitor. Made a lot of folks doing data entry very happy.
- mwcampbell 9y ago
  Not paying attention to tab order is also bad for accessibility, e.g. for blind users.
mwcampbell 9y ago
I don't get your point about typing phone numbers. When I was being taught to touch-type in first and second grade, my teachers told me that I should type on the top row, not the numeric keypad. Not sure why. Maybe because it takes less time to move to the top row and back? Anyway, to me, typing numbers on the top row is not an obvious problem.
- fallingfrog 9y ago
  I mentioned that because I thought it showed how he'd never really watched one of the users in their job- once you get used to the numpad it's a lot faster. You can type in a long number very quickly without taking your eyes off the screen.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
- celeritascelery 9y ago
  That is until you are entering dozens or hundreds of numbers.
- nevir 9y ago
  The numpad is a considerably faster input method, and it can be performed one handed. For a point of sale system, this is critical: the clerk can juggle an item while typing the phone number (or price, or whatever)
- protomyth 9y ago
  Because most accountant and office types will use the numeric keypad and go blazing fast. That’s probably one reasons for the complaints. God help any PC tech who screws up their settings and doesn’t enable num-lock at boot.
- toast0 9y ago
  It depends on the length of the number you're typing and the context. In PoS, you're not likely to be typing many letters most of the time, so left hand for function keys, right hand for numbers is pretty good. You can move your hands if you move to a search.
- panzagl 9y ago
  For a POS system input is probably all numbers- look up customer by phone, make choices from a menu, enter quantities. Letters are for new customers and special instructions. I worked at a print shop that switched from DOS to Windows for it's POS software, it was an order of magnitude slower. At least we could play solitaire though.
- pohl 9y ago
  The teacher was just trying to focus your practice on one specific skill instead of another.
- dkersten 9y ago
  > Maybe because it takes less time to move to the top row and back? Presumably this is it. I find typing on numpad is much faster and simpler, but 1) laptops typically don't have one and 2) on normal keyboards it takes my hands away from the main keyboard. Then I switched to a Kinesis Advantage2 and now the numpad is integrated into the main keyboard, using a foot pedal to toggle between main keys and integrated keys.
- dfox 9y ago
  When most of the stuff that you type are numbers then numpad makes more sense than top row (also, many non-english keyboard layouts have numbers in top row shifted). For POS and similar applications it actually makes sense to design the UI such that it can be used only with numpad, for example by using +,-,*,/ as function keys for common operations.
- ams6110 9y ago
  The touch-typing course was probably developed 50 years ago for typewriters, which don't have numeric keypads.
knieveltech 9y ago
For those of us that have been fortunate enough to avoid having a job that involved an adding machine or cash register the number pad is an awkward AF to use. Conversely the top keyboard row is in range for touch typing.
- Cthulhu_ 9y ago
  I've avoided that job, but back when I still had a keyboard with a numpad I'd use that if I had to fill in numbers repeatedly. I can't touch type numbers accurately, it's just a bit out of reach.
- coffeevradar 9y ago
  People that do any kind of data entry or work in finance learn to use it too. The number pad is not just for cashiers.
  - knieveltech 9y ago
    Yeah, which is why I mentioned adding machines.
- megaman22 9y ago
  I dunno, I've used the number pad by default since I was a little cutter begging to sneak into my mom's classroom and play on the Apple II that was in there. I might be a weird one; I can't switch myself over to using WASD controls in video games either; I've got to use the arrow keys, and then hope that I can bind the other important commands to keys in that vicinity.
ambrosite 9y ago
I've always found it easier to type long strings of numbers on the number pad. I don't know why, it's not as though I ever deliberately trained myself to use it, but for me the number pad is much faster than using the top row.
- nevir 9y ago
  Your fingers don't have as far to travel, and there's no seeking involved (hand doesn't move)
  - dredmorbius 9y ago
    Less ambiguity (three vertical rows, no horizontal movement), and the most-frequently entered keys (1, 2, 0) are not at extreme and hard-to-assess ends of the movement range.
- graphitezepp 9y ago
  Everything is much closer together, you don't have to move your hand only your fingers. It is clearly the better input device for pure digit sequences.
  - drzaiusapelord 9y ago
    Not for left handed people. My primary hand is better/closer to the top row. My non-primary handle struggles with the keypad, especially if I don't use it very often - which I don't. Worse, if you're on a laptop a lot then this habit is kicked out the door. Enabling a numpad on the keyboard is less efficient than just using the top row.
    - npsimons 9y ago
      > Not for left handed people. I'm left handed; the numpad is freakin' awesome for number entry. Back when I still played games like Descent and WoW, it was also very efficient to setup the mouse for my left hand and leave my right hand on the number pad. Aim and fire with mouse, maneuver with numpad (in Descent), or action bar items on numpad (in WoW).
losvedir 9y ago
> and he started typing a phone number using the top row of the keyboard instead of the numpad As I'd expect any good programmer to...? As a 100+ wpm touch typist (including symbols + numbers) and former finance professional, I use the top row of the keyboard for numbers. How is having 8 fingers available that don't have to move much going to be slower than using three that have to move up and down? I get the point that the programmer wasn't behaving like the users; that's a good critique, but I'm picking up the vibe from this comment that you think the numpad is inherently better for that sort of thing? No way... Edit: huh, seeing the chain of comments here, I guess I'm in the minority? I don't see how someone can consider them a touch typist (type quickly without looking at the keyboard) and not be able to reach and use numbers and symbols, but maybe a lot of folks here are like that? How do you program with numbers, and ampersands, and parentheses, and asterisks and the equal sign and underscores and all that, having to look down at the keyboard??? It just seems obvious to me that a skilled typist would be much faster using the top numbers than the numpad.

mattmanser 9y ago

To be fair, I only started using the numpad after I had a temp job in data entry. I hate laptops that don't have them now, but seeing as a lot of laptops cut them off, most people can't think num pads are that important. Not paying attention to tab order in an enterprise app is a cardinal sin though.

protomyth 9y ago
When we bought MacBooks I bought a bunch of USB numeric keypads to plug in to their desktop monitor. Made a lot of folks doing data entry very happy.
mwcampbell 9y ago
Not paying attention to tab order is also bad for accessibility, e.g. for blind users.

mwcampbell 9y ago

I don't get your point about typing phone numbers. When I was being taught to touch-type in first and second grade, my teachers told me that I should type on the top row, not the numeric keypad. Not sure why. Maybe because it takes less time to move to the top row and back? Anyway, to me, typing numbers on the top row is not an obvious problem.

fallingfrog 9y ago
I mentioned that because I thought it showed how he'd never really watched one of the users in their job- once you get used to the numpad it's a lot faster. You can type in a long number very quickly without taking your eyes off the screen.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
celeritascelery 9y ago
That is until you are entering dozens or hundreds of numbers.
nevir 9y ago
The numpad is a considerably faster input method, and it can be performed one handed. For a point of sale system, this is critical: the clerk can juggle an item while typing the phone number (or price, or whatever)
protomyth 9y ago
Because most accountant and office types will use the numeric keypad and go blazing fast. That’s probably one reasons for the complaints. God help any PC tech who screws up their settings and doesn’t enable num-lock at boot.
toast0 9y ago
It depends on the length of the number you're typing and the context. In PoS, you're not likely to be typing many letters most of the time, so left hand for function keys, right hand for numbers is pretty good. You can move your hands if you move to a search.
panzagl 9y ago
For a POS system input is probably all numbers- look up customer by phone, make choices from a menu, enter quantities. Letters are for new customers and special instructions. I worked at a print shop that switched from DOS to Windows for it's POS software, it was an order of magnitude slower. At least we could play solitaire though.
pohl 9y ago
The teacher was just trying to focus your practice on one specific skill instead of another.
dkersten 9y ago
> Maybe because it takes less time to move to the top row and back? Presumably this is it. I find typing on numpad is much faster and simpler, but 1) laptops typically don't have one and 2) on normal keyboards it takes my hands away from the main keyboard. Then I switched to a Kinesis Advantage2 and now the numpad is integrated into the main keyboard, using a foot pedal to toggle between main keys and integrated keys.
dfox 9y ago
When most of the stuff that you type are numbers then numpad makes more sense than top row (also, many non-english keyboard layouts have numbers in top row shifted). For POS and similar applications it actually makes sense to design the UI such that it can be used only with numpad, for example by using +,-,*,/ as function keys for common operations.
ams6110 9y ago
The touch-typing course was probably developed 50 years ago for typewriters, which don't have numeric keypads.

knieveltech 9y ago

For those of us that have been fortunate enough to avoid having a job that involved an adding machine or cash register the number pad is an awkward AF to use. Conversely the top keyboard row is in range for touch typing.

Cthulhu_ 9y ago
I've avoided that job, but back when I still had a keyboard with a numpad I'd use that if I had to fill in numbers repeatedly. I can't touch type numbers accurately, it's just a bit out of reach.
coffeevradar 9y ago
People that do any kind of data entry or work in finance learn to use it too. The number pad is not just for cashiers.
- knieveltech 9y ago
  Yeah, which is why I mentioned adding machines.
megaman22 9y ago
I dunno, I've used the number pad by default since I was a little cutter begging to sneak into my mom's classroom and play on the Apple II that was in there. I might be a weird one; I can't switch myself over to using WASD controls in video games either; I've got to use the arrow keys, and then hope that I can bind the other important commands to keys in that vicinity.

ambrosite 9y ago

I've always found it easier to type long strings of numbers on the number pad. I don't know why, it's not as though I ever deliberately trained myself to use it, but for me the number pad is much faster than using the top row.

nevir 9y ago
Your fingers don't have as far to travel, and there's no seeking involved (hand doesn't move)
- dredmorbius 9y ago
  Less ambiguity (three vertical rows, no horizontal movement), and the most-frequently entered keys (1, 2, 0) are not at extreme and hard-to-assess ends of the movement range.
graphitezepp 9y ago
Everything is much closer together, you don't have to move your hand only your fingers. It is clearly the better input device for pure digit sequences.
- drzaiusapelord 9y ago
  Not for left handed people. My primary hand is better/closer to the top row. My non-primary handle struggles with the keypad, especially if I don't use it very often - which I don't. Worse, if you're on a laptop a lot then this habit is kicked out the door. Enabling a numpad on the keyboard is less efficient than just using the top row.
  - npsimons 9y ago
    > Not for left handed people. I'm left handed; the numpad is freakin' awesome for number entry. Back when I still played games like Descent and WoW, it was also very efficient to setup the mouse for my left hand and leave my right hand on the number pad. Aim and fire with mouse, maneuver with numpad (in Descent), or action bar items on numpad (in WoW).

losvedir 9y ago

> and he started typing a phone number using the top row of the keyboard instead of the numpad As I'd expect any good programmer to...? As a 100+ wpm touch typist (including symbols + numbers) and former finance professional, I use the top row of the keyboard for numbers. How is having 8 fingers available that don't have to move much going to be slower than using three that have to move up and down? I get the point that the programmer wasn't behaving like the users; that's a good critique, but I'm picking up the vibe from this comment that you think the numpad is inherently better for that sort of thing? No way... Edit: huh, seeing the chain of comments here, I guess I'm in the minority? I don't see how someone can consider them a touch typist (type quickly without looking at the keyboard) and not be able to reach and use numbers and symbols, but maybe a lot of folks here are like that? How do you program with numbers, and ampersands, and parentheses, and asterisks and the equal sign and underscores and all that, having to look down at the keyboard??? It just seems obvious to me that a skilled typist would be much faster using the top numbers than the numpad.