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> Honestly, I think part of maturing into a senior software engineer (and later, a good manager) is accepting that while things aren't perfect, they're plenty g

> Honestly, I think part of maturing into a senior software engineer (and later, a good manager) is accepting that while things aren't perfect, they're plenty good enough to solve your problems and make money. I don't think this at all. I think part of maturing into a senior dev is having the experience to know what makes you happy, what makes you unhappy, and still make money. For many the journey matters, and for the more passionate, "good enough" is a give-up mentality. And it's a good thing you don't have to keep these thoughts to yourself...you should feel free to share.

falcolas 9y ago
Happiness... Passion... these terms don't mean anything when it comes to maturity as a programmer. Maturity as a programmer means being able to identify and do what it takes to get things done. Whether a developer is "happy", or "passionate" only begins to matter when they're doing what needs being done. A true sign of maturity is when a programmer is faced with a workload that they are deeply unhappy about, but still get it done, because it needs to be done. The corresponding sign of mature leadership is acknowledging that developer's unhappiness and giving them extra money, work they enjoy, and/or time off after the crap work is done.
- kodablah 9y ago
  I guess we're just maturing in different ways. Your definition sounds like a big company doing less-rewarding work and middle management. For me, it was realizing you don't have to move towards management or dealing with lots of "crap work" (can't avoid it all of course). Also with maturity comes the realization that things that need to be done and being happy while doing it don't have to be mutually exclusive.
  - falcolas 9y ago
    If you were tasked with maintaining a 10 year old codebase, your happiness really doesn't matter. If you don't find code maintenance enjoyable work, you're not going to enjoy the work. Sure, you might be able to make a game of it - to make it enjoyable - but that has no real bearing on your maturity as a programmer, just your personality. That some programmers truly enjoy their work is a gift that they are lucky to have; not a sign of maturity.
    - kodablah 9y ago
      > If you were tasked with maintaining a 10 year old codebase Then I quit my job. As a quality senior you have the leverage to pick where and how you work. Otherwise, you may be thinking of just a tenured junior or someone who was given a title of "senior". This is why I said earlier "part of maturing into a senior dev is having the experience to know what makes you happy"...not just doing what someone tells you.
      - mdpopescu 9y ago
        Heh. I actually enjoy maintaining old code, as long as that means I can improve it while adding new functionality. If it means "no, we can't change that method with a 200+ cyclomatic complexity because the NY office wrote it and they would be upset about it" then yeah, that would suck. (Real story in a recent contract with a bank.)
- neveruseruby 9y ago
  > A true sign of maturity is when a programmer is faced with a workload that they are deeply unhappy about, but still get it done, because it needs to be done. I’d like to pause the ruby discussion here to point out this is a deeply unhealthy viewpoint—it’s your own funeral if you knowingly go to a job that makes you “deeply unhappy” every day. That’s not maturity, that’s self harm. Maturity is responsibility, including to yourself.
  - falcolas 9y ago
    Hence the directly following comment about mature management. Leaving if management is not mature is a perfectly reasonable thing to do; but not doing the work you've been given before you leave is irresponsible at best, petulant at worst. A personal anecdote: I've been pushed into QA for several, because we needed it to be done, and I had the prior experience. I hate doing QA work. After the crunch was done, I took a break, then went back to work I wanted to be doing. And yes, perhaps this denotes a lack of hubris, but I consider that to be mark of maturity as an employee in me, and in my manager.
amorphid 9y ago
For any given problem, I usually describe <my current favorite language> as being less crappy than every thing else that I've tried. Every language has disappointed me when I try to do thing those languages were never designed to do. Calling a spork a crappy spoon and/or fork ignores why one embraced the spork in the first place. Embrace the spork.

falcolas 9y ago

Happiness... Passion... these terms don't mean anything when it comes to maturity as a programmer. Maturity as a programmer means being able to identify and do what it takes to get things done. Whether a developer is "happy", or "passionate" only begins to matter when they're doing what needs being done. A true sign of maturity is when a programmer is faced with a workload that they are deeply unhappy about, but still get it done, because it needs to be done. The corresponding sign of mature leadership is acknowledging that developer's unhappiness and giving them extra money, work they enjoy, and/or time off after the crap work is done.

kodablah 9y ago
I guess we're just maturing in different ways. Your definition sounds like a big company doing less-rewarding work and middle management. For me, it was realizing you don't have to move towards management or dealing with lots of "crap work" (can't avoid it all of course). Also with maturity comes the realization that things that need to be done and being happy while doing it don't have to be mutually exclusive.
- falcolas 9y ago
  If you were tasked with maintaining a 10 year old codebase, your happiness really doesn't matter. If you don't find code maintenance enjoyable work, you're not going to enjoy the work. Sure, you might be able to make a game of it - to make it enjoyable - but that has no real bearing on your maturity as a programmer, just your personality. That some programmers truly enjoy their work is a gift that they are lucky to have; not a sign of maturity.
  - kodablah 9y ago
    > If you were tasked with maintaining a 10 year old codebase Then I quit my job. As a quality senior you have the leverage to pick where and how you work. Otherwise, you may be thinking of just a tenured junior or someone who was given a title of "senior". This is why I said earlier "part of maturing into a senior dev is having the experience to know what makes you happy"...not just doing what someone tells you.
    - mdpopescu 9y ago
      Heh. I actually enjoy maintaining old code, as long as that means I can improve it while adding new functionality. If it means "no, we can't change that method with a 200+ cyclomatic complexity because the NY office wrote it and they would be upset about it" then yeah, that would suck. (Real story in a recent contract with a bank.)
neveruseruby 9y ago
> A true sign of maturity is when a programmer is faced with a workload that they are deeply unhappy about, but still get it done, because it needs to be done. I’d like to pause the ruby discussion here to point out this is a deeply unhealthy viewpoint—it’s your own funeral if you knowingly go to a job that makes you “deeply unhappy” every day. That’s not maturity, that’s self harm. Maturity is responsibility, including to yourself.
- falcolas 9y ago
  Hence the directly following comment about mature management. Leaving if management is not mature is a perfectly reasonable thing to do; but not doing the work you've been given before you leave is irresponsible at best, petulant at worst. A personal anecdote: I've been pushed into QA for several, because we needed it to be done, and I had the prior experience. I hate doing QA work. After the crunch was done, I took a break, then went back to work I wanted to be doing. And yes, perhaps this denotes a lack of hubris, but I consider that to be mark of maturity as an employee in me, and in my manager.

amorphid 9y ago

For any given problem, I usually describe <my current favorite language> as being less crappy than every thing else that I've tried. Every language has disappointed me when I try to do thing those languages were never designed to do. Calling a spork a crappy spoon and/or fork ignores why one embraced the spork in the first place. Embrace the spork.