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It doesn’t matter what they’ll spend it on. Don’t pretend to be a micro-political arbiter of societal health or the well-being of someone you don’t even know, a

It doesn’t matter what they’ll spend it on. Don’t pretend to be a micro-political arbiter of societal health or the well-being of someone you don’t even know, and just afford them the bare minimum of dignity. Give them money if you can: https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2017/10/why-you-should-give-money-directly-and-unconditionally-homeless-people https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2017/10/why-you-sho... “But what if they are part of a gang, or spend the money on $thing_i_disapprove_of?” You can’t know that. Don’t pretend to. Just treat them like humans, not guilty-until-proven-innocent caricatures of social maladies.

humanrebar 9y ago
> Don’t pretend to be a micro-political arbiter... By the fifth time a friend or family member hits me up for cash, I'm going to start talking to him about the root cause of his cash flow issues. There may be advice, help, references, etc. that I can help with. Because that's what friends and neighbors do, not because I'm political.
- throwanem 9y ago
  We're not talking about friends and family here, though. That's a clear different situation.
  - humanrebar 9y ago
    Not always. I've had homeless family. I've had homeless friends. Regardless, if a stranger hits you up for money five times on five different weeks, you still have similar issues. At some point they don't need a meal, they need a way to feed themselves.
wallace_f 9y ago
In Seattle my friend and I used to always give these two homeless guys our change from the supermarket. Once my buddy asked them, instead, what they needed from inside. The guy asked for a drink, and he bought them a drink: "Man, are you kidding me? I asked you for a drink. And you went and got me this ! I don't want that . I want a drink." Some woman in the parking lot saw us and explained to us that they often sleep at a nearby shelter, and that they have access to meals every day. I guess we thought we were really helping them, but realized we weren't really doing much more than encouraging their behavior. I wish there were code camps for homeless. Or xyz_marketable_skill camps for the homeless. I know these wouldn't help everyone, but I would feel a lot more sure about the marginal benefit they provide. I know it is sad. But there is a lot of value in an approach which provides opportunity. Up on Cap Hill, there used to be this homeless guy that would walk up and down the street, picking up all the garbage on the sidewalks and the gutters. I offered to buy him lunch and he refused--he said he didn't want to be any trouble and could get meals. I told him I'd buy him whatever he wanted from the undercover-Starbucks that is up there, and he agreed. I always remember that guy's eyes and smile when he sat down and drank that coffee. I sometimes I wanted to cry for him. I wish there was a better way for him; he deserved it.
- Chris2048 9y ago
  > I wish there were code camps for homeless I think it is patronising, not charitable, to treat homeless people as "just like you, but unlucky/lacking opportunity". It downplays the serious problems that put them there, by casting them as under-performing versions of yourself.
  - wallace_f 9y ago
    Are you sure patronizing is the right word here? Treating someone as you would yourself betrays the definition of patronizing.. So I'm not sure what you mean by that? It however does seem patronizing to assert, as you say, that they are not people just like you but who 'have serious problems that put them there.' The argument has been made that a majority of people in their life will experience an episode of what can be called mental illness. Why does America have higher instance of homelessness than other countries? It cannot only be that we necessarily are genetically have greater predisposition to mental illness. Some people suffer more than others, and for those that are truly disabled, I would hope that our society will truly care for them, but everyone should first be given opportunities.
    - Chris2048 9y ago
      > It however does seem patronizing to assert, as you say, that they are not people just like you Depends what you mean. If you mean "they are not people" I don't assert this at all. If you mean "they are people who are not like you" I did assert this. How is that patronising, especially given that they are homeless, and you are not - It is attributing the difference to small, surmountable differences that find partonising. Consider whether you also find "white man's burden" problematic. Treating other people like inferior versions of yourself doesn't help them. > a majority of people in their life will experience an episode of what can be called mental illness That's a very general statement. I can just as well claim that a majority of people in their life will experience an episode of what can be called "problems". But are the types of mental illness that many american experience, the same as those affecting homeless people? > Why does America have higher instance of homelessness than other countries Which countries? looking here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_homeless_population https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_homeless_... It says American homelessness is 0.18%, compared to 0.38% for the UK and 0.42% to Germany.
Chris2048 9y ago
> just afford them the bare minimum of dignity I find begging undignified, as is being drunk/high. How does enabling help? > You can’t know that What Kantian BS. You can't know the opposite either. "Do no harm". > Just treat them like humans I don't give random strangers money normally.
- zbentley 9y ago
  I think the linked article answers your statements more effectively than I could. You should read it. But I'll try anyway. > begging undignified That's the point. It's so undignified that the people doing it likely do not consider it a choice. Saying "I won't give you what you want because I know what's best for you" is compounding that situation with infantilization/patronization. > Kantian BS/"Do no harm" The categorical imperative doesn't help you decide one way or the other here, because you have no information other than someone asking you for money. Giving the money could hurt or help. Not giving it could hurt or help. There is no clear "rational" (Kantian) or Hippocratic ("Do no harm") choice here. Absent that clarity, unless you want to defend defaulting to inaction, make a moral choice to preserve someone's dignity. > I don't give random strangers money normally. Maybe you should, especially when they are literally begging you for it on a street full of people who ignore them or treat them like shit all day.
  - Chris2048 9y ago
    If a person is an addict, not giving them the object of their addiction is best for them. I do know this. If you want to call that "infantilization", fine - but you already agree they have little choice - so it is you choosing for them; So which is infantilization? The basis of "patronizing" is an invalid assumption of incompetence - in this case the assumption that an addict cannot rationally control their addition is perfectly valid. As for " I know what's best for you" - I'm sure the addict know what's best for themselves too - they just can't control the impulse to do not do it. > There is no clear "rational" (Kantian) or Hippocratic ("Do no harm") choice here > unless you want to defend defaulting to inaction, make a moral choice to preserve someone's dignity This appears to be a contradiction - there is no clear choice, but we should default to action? I don't see why "dignity" (which I don't agree with btw - I feel being drunk/high is just as undignified) is a winner over Hippocratic inaction. > Maybe you should You are ignoring the context of what I said. You suggested denying homeless money is not treating them like "people", but I don't give none-homeless strangers money either, so why would you consider refusing to giving a stranger money on demand as inhumane?
giancarlostoro 9y ago
I've met and helped provide food for plenty of homeless people. Not in a shelter or similar, but out where they are at night when they're going to sleep on the concrete, sometimes we'd wake some of them up so they know we're there to help them however we can. Many of them accepted our food, a small enough number refused and kept asking for money. Sometimes we went out of our way to buy them a bus ticket if they asked for money for the bus ticket, and never found them again after that. Other times it was obvious what they'd do with money if we gave it to them because they spoke as if they were drunk and smelled like it. We did more than just provide food but the point is, sometimes the people helping the homeless have known them for over a year and have noticed their habits, and know when not to give money. But the bigger point is most people assume money to be the only way to help someone, sometimes offering food and water is helpful too. We've ran into families that asked us for food when we were not even out feeding the homeless as well.

humanrebar 9y ago

> Don’t pretend to be a micro-political arbiter... By the fifth time a friend or family member hits me up for cash, I'm going to start talking to him about the root cause of his cash flow issues. There may be advice, help, references, etc. that I can help with. Because that's what friends and neighbors do, not because I'm political.

throwanem 9y ago
We're not talking about friends and family here, though. That's a clear different situation.
- humanrebar 9y ago
  Not always. I've had homeless family. I've had homeless friends. Regardless, if a stranger hits you up for money five times on five different weeks, you still have similar issues. At some point they don't need a meal, they need a way to feed themselves.

wallace_f 9y ago

In Seattle my friend and I used to always give these two homeless guys our change from the supermarket. Once my buddy asked them, instead, what they needed from inside. The guy asked for a drink, and he bought them a drink: "Man, are you kidding me? I asked you for a drink. And you went and got me this ! I don't want that . I want a drink." Some woman in the parking lot saw us and explained to us that they often sleep at a nearby shelter, and that they have access to meals every day. I guess we thought we were really helping them, but realized we weren't really doing much more than encouraging their behavior. I wish there were code camps for homeless. Or xyz_marketable_skill camps for the homeless. I know these wouldn't help everyone, but I would feel a lot more sure about the marginal benefit they provide. I know it is sad. But there is a lot of value in an approach which provides opportunity. Up on Cap Hill, there used to be this homeless guy that would walk up and down the street, picking up all the garbage on the sidewalks and the gutters. I offered to buy him lunch and he refused--he said he didn't want to be any trouble and could get meals. I told him I'd buy him whatever he wanted from the undercover-Starbucks that is up there, and he agreed. I always remember that guy's eyes and smile when he sat down and drank that coffee. I sometimes I wanted to cry for him. I wish there was a better way for him; he deserved it.

Chris2048 9y ago
> I wish there were code camps for homeless I think it is patronising, not charitable, to treat homeless people as "just like you, but unlucky/lacking opportunity". It downplays the serious problems that put them there, by casting them as under-performing versions of yourself.
- wallace_f 9y ago
  Are you sure patronizing is the right word here? Treating someone as you would yourself betrays the definition of patronizing.. So I'm not sure what you mean by that? It however does seem patronizing to assert, as you say, that they are not people just like you but who 'have serious problems that put them there.' The argument has been made that a majority of people in their life will experience an episode of what can be called mental illness. Why does America have higher instance of homelessness than other countries? It cannot only be that we necessarily are genetically have greater predisposition to mental illness. Some people suffer more than others, and for those that are truly disabled, I would hope that our society will truly care for them, but everyone should first be given opportunities.
  - Chris2048 9y ago
    > It however does seem patronizing to assert, as you say, that they are not people just like you Depends what you mean. If you mean "they are not people" I don't assert this at all. If you mean "they are people who are not like you" I did assert this. How is that patronising, especially given that they are homeless, and you are not - It is attributing the difference to small, surmountable differences that find partonising. Consider whether you also find "white man's burden" problematic. Treating other people like inferior versions of yourself doesn't help them. > a majority of people in their life will experience an episode of what can be called mental illness That's a very general statement. I can just as well claim that a majority of people in their life will experience an episode of what can be called "problems". But are the types of mental illness that many american experience, the same as those affecting homeless people? > Why does America have higher instance of homelessness than other countries Which countries? looking here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_homeless_population https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_homeless_... It says American homelessness is 0.18%, compared to 0.38% for the UK and 0.42% to Germany.

Chris2048 9y ago

> just afford them the bare minimum of dignity I find begging undignified, as is being drunk/high. How does enabling help? > You can’t know that What Kantian BS. You can't know the opposite either. "Do no harm". > Just treat them like humans I don't give random strangers money normally.

zbentley 9y ago
I think the linked article answers your statements more effectively than I could. You should read it. But I'll try anyway. > begging undignified That's the point. It's so undignified that the people doing it likely do not consider it a choice. Saying "I won't give you what you want because I know what's best for you" is compounding that situation with infantilization/patronization. > Kantian BS/"Do no harm" The categorical imperative doesn't help you decide one way or the other here, because you have no information other than someone asking you for money. Giving the money could hurt or help. Not giving it could hurt or help. There is no clear "rational" (Kantian) or Hippocratic ("Do no harm") choice here. Absent that clarity, unless you want to defend defaulting to inaction, make a moral choice to preserve someone's dignity. > I don't give random strangers money normally. Maybe you should, especially when they are literally begging you for it on a street full of people who ignore them or treat them like shit all day.
- Chris2048 9y ago
  If a person is an addict, not giving them the object of their addiction is best for them. I do know this. If you want to call that "infantilization", fine - but you already agree they have little choice - so it is you choosing for them; So which is infantilization? The basis of "patronizing" is an invalid assumption of incompetence - in this case the assumption that an addict cannot rationally control their addition is perfectly valid. As for " I know what's best for you" - I'm sure the addict know what's best for themselves too - they just can't control the impulse to do not do it. > There is no clear "rational" (Kantian) or Hippocratic ("Do no harm") choice here > unless you want to defend defaulting to inaction, make a moral choice to preserve someone's dignity This appears to be a contradiction - there is no clear choice, but we should default to action? I don't see why "dignity" (which I don't agree with btw - I feel being drunk/high is just as undignified) is a winner over Hippocratic inaction. > Maybe you should You are ignoring the context of what I said. You suggested denying homeless money is not treating them like "people", but I don't give none-homeless strangers money either, so why would you consider refusing to giving a stranger money on demand as inhumane?

giancarlostoro 9y ago

I've met and helped provide food for plenty of homeless people. Not in a shelter or similar, but out where they are at night when they're going to sleep on the concrete, sometimes we'd wake some of them up so they know we're there to help them however we can. Many of them accepted our food, a small enough number refused and kept asking for money. Sometimes we went out of our way to buy them a bus ticket if they asked for money for the bus ticket, and never found them again after that. Other times it was obvious what they'd do with money if we gave it to them because they spoke as if they were drunk and smelled like it. We did more than just provide food but the point is, sometimes the people helping the homeless have known them for over a year and have noticed their habits, and know when not to give money. But the bigger point is most people assume money to be the only way to help someone, sometimes offering food and water is helpful too. We've ran into families that asked us for food when we were not even out feeding the homeless as well.