4 ms·

> if you truly want to help them but don't trust them with your money? why not?

by yodsanklai 9y ago

a13n 9y ago
Drugs
- lsiebert 9y ago
  5 dollars or whatever you give doesn't really buy much in terms of drugs, I suspect.
  - ryguytilidie 9y ago
    There's a reason the term nickel bag exists.
  - mkane848 9y ago
    I suspect you haven't particularly looked very hard, then
cx1000 9y ago
They may spend it on cigarettes, alcohol, drugs, etc. Or even be exaggerating/faking their circumstances.
- CaptainZapp 9y ago
  They may spend it on cigarettes, alcohol, drugs Sure, but so what? Doesn't a person have a right to escape his miserable circumstances for a short time? Sure, food or shelter are certainly the more wholesome option. But who am I to judge a person's morality for what he does with a couple francs that I just gave him?
  - saiya-jin 9y ago
    Well, if I am giving my money to a homeless guy begging on the street/public transport, I for sure will not encourage him in his destructive behavior. It means me contributing to his self-destruction with my money. Simply no. How hard is it to understand this? Personally, I give sometimes few coins to street musicians, but that's it. Homeless in Europe never struggle for life, there is a vast social net that can help them in various ways, if they want. Giving money means confirming that this is affordable lifestyle, and something they should continue doing.
  - randallsquared 9y ago
    I don't think the expectation is that they may budget a measured amount for alcohol or other drugs, but that by providing them with the means to get more of those things, one may play a small part in what prevents their escape from said miserable circumstances.
    - monktastic1 9y ago
      But does turning a blind eye help them escape any better than a few dollars and some camaraderie?
  - m_fayer 9y ago
    It's sad that this is getting downvoted here. We are talking about people in miserable circumstances, and while vices are a longterm negative, I, an educated disciplined and well off person, still can't reliably resist them when I'm feeling down. To begrudge these people their vices is inhuman.
  - vorpalhex 9y ago
    > Doesn't a person have a right to escape his miserable circumstances for a short time? Yes but not on my dime. I'm entirely happy to pay (directly or via taxes) to feed the hungry, shelter the homeless, get them medical care and clean clothes. But I really don't think buying them cigarettes and light beer is improving their situation in a meaningful way.
  - Chris2048 9y ago
    > Sure, but so what? All those things are harmful. > Doesn't a person have a right to escape What if those circumstances are created by the escape? > But who am I to judge a person's morality I'm not judging the addict, I'm judging the enabler..
fiala__ 9y ago
not sure about the US, but in Europe you often have people begging on streets who are actually working for a group of (often foreign) criminals, who then collect the money and maybe provide the beggars with modest shelter/protection. There were speculations it could be a case of human trafficking. Obviously that's a whole different kind of homelessness to what the article above is describing.
zbentley 9y ago
It doesn’t matter what they’ll spend it on. Don’t pretend to be a micro-political arbiter of societal health or the well-being of someone you don’t even know, and just afford them the bare minimum of dignity. Give them money if you can: https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2017/10/why-you-should-give-money-directly-and-unconditionally-homeless-people https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2017/10/why-you-sho... “But what if they are part of a gang, or spend the money on $thing_i_disapprove_of?” You can’t know that. Don’t pretend to. Just treat them like humans, not guilty-until-proven-innocent caricatures of social maladies.
- humanrebar 9y ago
  > Don’t pretend to be a micro-political arbiter... By the fifth time a friend or family member hits me up for cash, I'm going to start talking to him about the root cause of his cash flow issues. There may be advice, help, references, etc. that I can help with. Because that's what friends and neighbors do, not because I'm political.
  - throwanem 9y ago
    We're not talking about friends and family here, though. That's a clear different situation.
    - humanrebar 9y ago
      Not always. I've had homeless family. I've had homeless friends. Regardless, if a stranger hits you up for money five times on five different weeks, you still have similar issues. At some point they don't need a meal, they need a way to feed themselves.
- wallace_f 9y ago
  In Seattle my friend and I used to always give these two homeless guys our change from the supermarket. Once my buddy asked them, instead, what they needed from inside. The guy asked for a drink, and he bought them a drink: "Man, are you kidding me? I asked you for a drink. And you went and got me this ! I don't want that . I want a drink." Some woman in the parking lot saw us and explained to us that they often sleep at a nearby shelter, and that they have access to meals every day. I guess we thought we were really helping them, but realized we weren't really doing much more than encouraging their behavior. I wish there were code camps for homeless. Or xyz_marketable_skill camps for the homeless. I know these wouldn't help everyone, but I would feel a lot more sure about the marginal benefit they provide. I know it is sad. But there is a lot of value in an approach which provides opportunity. Up on Cap Hill, there used to be this homeless guy that would walk up and down the street, picking up all the garbage on the sidewalks and the gutters. I offered to buy him lunch and he refused--he said he didn't want to be any trouble and could get meals. I told him I'd buy him whatever he wanted from the undercover-Starbucks that is up there, and he agreed. I always remember that guy's eyes and smile when he sat down and drank that coffee. I sometimes I wanted to cry for him. I wish there was a better way for him; he deserved it.
mkane848 9y ago
Because when an addict wants something, they'll lie. Even if they should really use the money for a sandwich, they'll buy the 40 first. Not to say all homeless are addicts, but when they're asking you within walking distance of a liquor store... I'd rather buy them food or a (non-alcoholic) drink. I rarely have cash on me anyway so I've just had a guy throw his food on my bill when I went into a convenience store before. I've literally told a guy I'd go into Wawa with him and buy his lunch, but he admitted to my face he wanted the money for the liquor store next door. When you feel like shit and your life isn't going so great, your self-control isn't exactly great. I'd rather be a positive influence than an enabler. EDIT: and just for some perspective, I unfortunately used to work in a liquor store in Ortley Beach, NJ where I saw a lot of shit and also have lots of, uh, substance abuse issues in my family. Not to mention NJ has a pretty bad heroin problem in general and it's currently fucking up my hometown.

> if you truly want to help them but don't trust them with your money? why not?

a13n 9y ago

Drugs

lsiebert 9y ago
5 dollars or whatever you give doesn't really buy much in terms of drugs, I suspect.
- ryguytilidie 9y ago
  There's a reason the term nickel bag exists.
- mkane848 9y ago
  I suspect you haven't particularly looked very hard, then

cx1000 9y ago

They may spend it on cigarettes, alcohol, drugs, etc. Or even be exaggerating/faking their circumstances.

CaptainZapp 9y ago
They may spend it on cigarettes, alcohol, drugs Sure, but so what? Doesn't a person have a right to escape his miserable circumstances for a short time? Sure, food or shelter are certainly the more wholesome option. But who am I to judge a person's morality for what he does with a couple francs that I just gave him?
- saiya-jin 9y ago
  Well, if I am giving my money to a homeless guy begging on the street/public transport, I for sure will not encourage him in his destructive behavior. It means me contributing to his self-destruction with my money. Simply no. How hard is it to understand this? Personally, I give sometimes few coins to street musicians, but that's it. Homeless in Europe never struggle for life, there is a vast social net that can help them in various ways, if they want. Giving money means confirming that this is affordable lifestyle, and something they should continue doing.
- randallsquared 9y ago
  I don't think the expectation is that they may budget a measured amount for alcohol or other drugs, but that by providing them with the means to get more of those things, one may play a small part in what prevents their escape from said miserable circumstances.
  - monktastic1 9y ago
    But does turning a blind eye help them escape any better than a few dollars and some camaraderie?
- m_fayer 9y ago
  It's sad that this is getting downvoted here. We are talking about people in miserable circumstances, and while vices are a longterm negative, I, an educated disciplined and well off person, still can't reliably resist them when I'm feeling down. To begrudge these people their vices is inhuman.
- vorpalhex 9y ago
  > Doesn't a person have a right to escape his miserable circumstances for a short time? Yes but not on my dime. I'm entirely happy to pay (directly or via taxes) to feed the hungry, shelter the homeless, get them medical care and clean clothes. But I really don't think buying them cigarettes and light beer is improving their situation in a meaningful way.
- Chris2048 9y ago
  > Sure, but so what? All those things are harmful. > Doesn't a person have a right to escape What if those circumstances are created by the escape? > But who am I to judge a person's morality I'm not judging the addict, I'm judging the enabler..

fiala__ 9y ago

not sure about the US, but in Europe you often have people begging on streets who are actually working for a group of (often foreign) criminals, who then collect the money and maybe provide the beggars with modest shelter/protection. There were speculations it could be a case of human trafficking. Obviously that's a whole different kind of homelessness to what the article above is describing.

zbentley 9y ago

It doesn’t matter what they’ll spend it on. Don’t pretend to be a micro-political arbiter of societal health or the well-being of someone you don’t even know, and just afford them the bare minimum of dignity. Give them money if you can: https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2017/10/why-you-should-give-money-directly-and-unconditionally-homeless-people https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2017/10/why-you-sho... “But what if they are part of a gang, or spend the money on $thing_i_disapprove_of?” You can’t know that. Don’t pretend to. Just treat them like humans, not guilty-until-proven-innocent caricatures of social maladies.

humanrebar 9y ago
> Don’t pretend to be a micro-political arbiter... By the fifth time a friend or family member hits me up for cash, I'm going to start talking to him about the root cause of his cash flow issues. There may be advice, help, references, etc. that I can help with. Because that's what friends and neighbors do, not because I'm political.
- throwanem 9y ago
  We're not talking about friends and family here, though. That's a clear different situation.
  - humanrebar 9y ago
    Not always. I've had homeless family. I've had homeless friends. Regardless, if a stranger hits you up for money five times on five different weeks, you still have similar issues. At some point they don't need a meal, they need a way to feed themselves.
wallace_f 9y ago
In Seattle my friend and I used to always give these two homeless guys our change from the supermarket. Once my buddy asked them, instead, what they needed from inside. The guy asked for a drink, and he bought them a drink: "Man, are you kidding me? I asked you for a drink. And you went and got me this ! I don't want that . I want a drink." Some woman in the parking lot saw us and explained to us that they often sleep at a nearby shelter, and that they have access to meals every day. I guess we thought we were really helping them, but realized we weren't really doing much more than encouraging their behavior. I wish there were code camps for homeless. Or xyz_marketable_skill camps for the homeless. I know these wouldn't help everyone, but I would feel a lot more sure about the marginal benefit they provide. I know it is sad. But there is a lot of value in an approach which provides opportunity. Up on Cap Hill, there used to be this homeless guy that would walk up and down the street, picking up all the garbage on the sidewalks and the gutters. I offered to buy him lunch and he refused--he said he didn't want to be any trouble and could get meals. I told him I'd buy him whatever he wanted from the undercover-Starbucks that is up there, and he agreed. I always remember that guy's eyes and smile when he sat down and drank that coffee. I sometimes I wanted to cry for him. I wish there was a better way for him; he deserved it.

mkane848 9y ago

Because when an addict wants something, they'll lie. Even if they should really use the money for a sandwich, they'll buy the 40 first. Not to say all homeless are addicts, but when they're asking you within walking distance of a liquor store... I'd rather buy them food or a (non-alcoholic) drink. I rarely have cash on me anyway so I've just had a guy throw his food on my bill when I went into a convenience store before. I've literally told a guy I'd go into Wawa with him and buy his lunch, but he admitted to my face he wanted the money for the liquor store next door. When you feel like shit and your life isn't going so great, your self-control isn't exactly great. I'd rather be a positive influence than an enabler. EDIT: and just for some perspective, I unfortunately used to work in a liquor store in Ortley Beach, NJ where I saw a lot of shit and also have lots of, uh, substance abuse issues in my family. Not to mention NJ has a pretty bad heroin problem in general and it's currently fucking up my hometown.