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It should be noted that Minix is code that was developed by university researchers. Researchers who are payed for by (primarily) European and Dutch tax euros.

by jvdh 9y ago

It should be noted that Minix is code that was developed by university researchers. Researchers who are payed for by (primarily) European and Dutch tax euros. Also note that many of that time, energy and money to modify GPL code is not just programming time, but also a lot of legal advice time. With BSD-like license it should be immediately clear what you can do with the code (i.e. almost everything).

Fredej 9y ago
This is probably gonna be a controversial view but my experience is this as well: Deploying GPL code is a legal process. Deploying BSD is a development process. We spent thousands of dollars on legal advice when deploying GPL. In the end it was largely as we expected it to be: No significant action was needed beyond releasing the code to the components that we already got for free, with the minor modifications we had made. But we had to be sure before we committed to using GPL code. Today, we have a blanket "yes you can" policy for BSD code while GPL is still on a case by case basis.
- lmm 9y ago
  I agree that many companies have that attitude towards BSD versus GPL, but is there actually a rational basis for it? Given that you've apparently already gone through the legal process and found out that the GPL means what you think it means, why are you holding it to a higher standard than BSD?
  - maccard 9y ago
    GPL usage depends on how you're using it. If you have two pieces of software, an internal only (e.g. a dashboard/deployment tool), and an external product, using GPL'ed code has different ramifications for both deployments.
  - Someone 9y ago
    If one of your employees accidentally copies even a single bit of GPL-licensed code into your privately licensed code or statically links against such code even once, and it gets ‘outside’ in any way, you legally have to release that version of your code under the GPL. Worse, the source code of all versions from _before_ that checkin automatically become GPL-licensed (because they contain code that, transitively, becomes GPL because it later was linked with GPL-licensed software) Yes, that may not hold up in court if it is a tiny non-essential fragment or, if you revert to old code soon, etc. but that’s not the point; if you end up in court, you already lost. With BSD-licensed code, that risk is way smaller. The worst you have to do is add a few (or quite a few thousand. Go check Setting/General/About/Legal for an example) attribution lines to the versions of your code that use the BSD-licensed code. (Also, even if you choose to license your code under the GPL, you have to track licensing, as it isn’t legally possible to combine GPL2 and GPLv3 or APGL and GPLv3 licenses or any GPL with ApAchexlicensed code in a single binary. See https://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.en.html https://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.en.html. If you want to troll GPL aficionados, license your code under GPLv1)
    - mavhc 9y ago
      Or you can stop using it, and talk to the copyright holder of the GPL'd code and ask what they want. Or if it's GPL v3 you have additional rights, fix it in 60 days etc. http://www.softwarefreedom.org/resources/2008/compliance-guide.html http://www.softwarefreedom.org/resources/2008/compliance-gui... section 5.2
    - belorn 9y ago
      Thats incorrect on many points: 1: A single-bit is not copyrightable. True and false is not copyrightable. No one in history have ever been sued for a single bit. No one has ended up in court for a one-bit GPL code. 2: If it get "outside" accidentally, there is a direct remedy that do not include releasing anything. You stop redistributing the program. Practically all GPL related lawsuits started with the words "please stop infringing my work", and when that did't work, "Judge, please stop them from infringing my work". The only companies that have ever been "forced" to do anything is when the option is between a full stop in production and sale, or releasing source code. One such company chose to not cut revenue, not stop production, and instead gave us the code which the OpenWrt project was created on. I wouldn't call that "forced". 3: Code do not transform from being non-GPL to GPL. That is not how copyright work. Code is only under GPL if you explicitly release a piece of code under GPL. If you put MIT code and gpl code together, the MIT will still be MIT. The combined work must explicitly be under GPL to be compliant, but you can still use the MIT code in isolation under MIT. The MIT code do not transform into different licenses just because you combine it with other code. Only explicit action counts, and the worst thing that can happen from code getting ‘outside’ in untended ways is copyright infringement where you legally have to stop distributing code.
    - lmm 9y ago
      > If one of your employees accidentally copies even a single bit of GPL-licensed code into your privately licensed code or statically links against such code even once, and it gets ‘outside’ in any way, you legally have to release that version of your code under the GPL. > With BSD-licensed code, that risk is way smaller. The worst you have to do is add a few (or quite a few thousand. Go check Setting/General/About/Legal for an example) attribution lines to the versions of your code that use the BSD-licensed code. Accidentally copying GPL-licensed code into non-GPL-licensed code puts you in exactly the same legal position as accidentally copying BSD-licensed code without attribution: you are now, technically, violating copyright, and in theory liable for statutory damages of $150,000. You're never forced to release your code under GPL; the GPL copyright holder might insist that you either release your code under GPL or pay the $150,000, but equally the BSD copyright holder might insist that you pay the $150,000 - they're within their rights to do that. In practice the author will most likely be willing to work with you to sort it out in either case. > Worse, the source code of all versions from _before_ that checkin automatically become GPL-licensed (because they contain code that, transitively, becomes GPL because it later was linked with GPL-licensed software) This is simply false.
  - Fredej 9y ago
    The process was figuring out that we in no way mix any GPL code with our own code. As long as we don't do that it's fine but we still have to make sure every time we touch anything GPL'ed. My personal opinion is that it's because the term 'a work' which is used liberally in GPL is a legal term and can potentially be interpreted quite broadly. This means that we have to ensure - every time - that what we do does not constitute 'a work' which derives from GPL code - in the legal sense - if we do not want to distribute the source code that we create. With BSD we don't have to go through that process because it will not result in us losing control over our own software. We just need to stick a disclaimer in a license file and we're done.
- craigsmansion 9y ago
  > Deploying GPL code is a legal process. Deploying GPL code is only a legal process if you make it one. If you're using it to write or deploy other GPL software, it's pretty much a straight forward affair. And if you're not using a GPL license, well, that's your problem: there's nothing stopping you from using the GPL to make all the hassle go away.
  - Fredej 9y ago
    That's true. Releasing other open source software using GPL software is much simpler. But if it's desirable to deploy closed source software GPL may not be the right choice unless you have time to sit down and consider the legal ramifications. In many cases there may be none if you use it in the right way but it should be and is being considered when companies decide consider whether or not to use open source software. That part is often significantly simpler with BSD which is why it's significantly easier to just allow BSD and have a case-by-case basis for GPL.
    - craigsmansion 9y ago
      > desirable to deploy closed source software Well, that's a peculiar desire. If a programmer wants to state "I do not want my code to be used in closed-source proprietary software" there's little more they can do than release under the GPL. There might be some good faith legal consultancy in seeing how, for example, the CDDL and the GPL interact, but for using GPL code in closed source products, the only excuse really is "What can I get away with?"
- zeveb 9y ago
  > Deploying GPL code is a legal process. It doesn't have to be. The GPL is very clear; anyone with even a semi-decent high school education can read and understand it. A company which requires legal consultation in order to know how to use GPL code has bigger problems. Of course, you can't both use GPLed code and deny your users' freedom. So don't do that. Sell hardware, sell services, just don't sell closed-source software.
  - DanBC 9y ago
    > The GPL is very clear; anyone with even a semi-decent high school education can read and understand it. The amount of discussion on HN about the GPL, and whether a project is or isn't complying with it, makes me think it's not so easy.
    - zeveb 9y ago
      > The amount of discussion on HN about the GPL, and whether a project is or isn't complying with it, makes me think it's not so easy. I think it's not that the GPL is unclear; it's that people want to violate its provisions while not being held liable for their violations. 'We want three parallel red lines, one green and one black, all intersecting.'
  - gpvos 9y ago
    The GPL may be very clear, but its interaction with the laws that are in force in your area may not be. As a (very) extreme example: I could write a license that says: if you use this code, you are now my slave. This license would not be valid in most jurisdictions; in fact, it might get me in jail. So, what you read in a license may or may not be true or enforceable.
- davexunit 9y ago
  I'm so tired of hearing this. The GPL is only a legal problem if you are trying to skirt the rules and distribute proprietary software but use GPL components. I've never needed to legal advice to deal with GPL code.
  - ksk 9y ago
    > The GPL is only a legal problem if you are trying to skirt the rules and distribute proprietary software but use GPL components. Well, a random developer can't simply assert it - you need lawyers to make sure you really are conforming to the GPL. With BSD, you don't. This is simply the ground reality.
    - madez 9y ago
      That is not true. If a company does not follow the GPL and is called out, they can simply do what the GPL tells them to do and the case is done.
      - ksk 9y ago
        >That is not true. What are you basing this on? Personal experience? Speculation? Other? >If a company does not follow the GPL and is called out, they can simply do what the GPL tells them to do and the case is done. Ask Cisco if the lawsuit from the FSF was fictional. I was involved with the GPL license a few years back when I was consulting on an embedded hardware device product. We wrote to the developer and requested them to re-license the software in exchange for a payment. They refused and we decided to use a differently licensed product in the end, based on legal advice.
        davexunit 9y ago
        So you wanted to write proprietary software on top of someone's GPL code, the developer couldn't be swayed by money, so now you are bitter about it? Talk about entitlement.
        9y ago
- mcguire 9y ago
  I have a suspicion that you need new lawyers. Having two different processes for two very common licenses seems a little off. The two cases aren't that different, legally. The GPL does require some extra work, but it's on the technical side, to make sure you're shipping all the source that you need to ship.
  - Fredej 9y ago
    Just a single outside lawyer we consulted with :) We already had processes in place for dealing with BSD. The reason for consulting with a lawyer was to ensure that we didn't do anything wrong which would later require us to open up source code that we didn't want to open up.
belorn 9y ago
Writing new code also take time and money, which is why LGPL (including LGPLv3) is heavy in used in industries which have a lot of compeition and no time or money to waste. To take a example, I often see LGPLv3 in big AAA games. I also see licenses that say "we asked the developer in a email and received special permission". Game studies seems to happy spend legal advice time if it saves them developer time, and from where I stand it seems to be a clear competitive advantage to do so. The only licenses they don't use is those that conflict with their core business model.

by jvdh 9y ago

Fredej 9y ago

This is probably gonna be a controversial view but my experience is this as well: Deploying GPL code is a legal process. Deploying BSD is a development process. We spent thousands of dollars on legal advice when deploying GPL. In the end it was largely as we expected it to be: No significant action was needed beyond releasing the code to the components that we already got for free, with the minor modifications we had made. But we had to be sure before we committed to using GPL code. Today, we have a blanket "yes you can" policy for BSD code while GPL is still on a case by case basis.

lmm 9y ago
I agree that many companies have that attitude towards BSD versus GPL, but is there actually a rational basis for it? Given that you've apparently already gone through the legal process and found out that the GPL means what you think it means, why are you holding it to a higher standard than BSD?
- maccard 9y ago
  GPL usage depends on how you're using it. If you have two pieces of software, an internal only (e.g. a dashboard/deployment tool), and an external product, using GPL'ed code has different ramifications for both deployments.
- Someone 9y ago
  If one of your employees accidentally copies even a single bit of GPL-licensed code into your privately licensed code or statically links against such code even once, and it gets ‘outside’ in any way, you legally have to release that version of your code under the GPL. Worse, the source code of all versions from _before_ that checkin automatically become GPL-licensed (because they contain code that, transitively, becomes GPL because it later was linked with GPL-licensed software) Yes, that may not hold up in court if it is a tiny non-essential fragment or, if you revert to old code soon, etc. but that’s not the point; if you end up in court, you already lost. With BSD-licensed code, that risk is way smaller. The worst you have to do is add a few (or quite a few thousand. Go check Setting/General/About/Legal for an example) attribution lines to the versions of your code that use the BSD-licensed code. (Also, even if you choose to license your code under the GPL, you have to track licensing, as it isn’t legally possible to combine GPL2 and GPLv3 or APGL and GPLv3 licenses or any GPL with ApAchexlicensed code in a single binary. See https://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.en.html https://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.en.html. If you want to troll GPL aficionados, license your code under GPLv1)
  - mavhc 9y ago
    Or you can stop using it, and talk to the copyright holder of the GPL'd code and ask what they want. Or if it's GPL v3 you have additional rights, fix it in 60 days etc. http://www.softwarefreedom.org/resources/2008/compliance-guide.html http://www.softwarefreedom.org/resources/2008/compliance-gui... section 5.2
  - belorn 9y ago
    Thats incorrect on many points: 1: A single-bit is not copyrightable. True and false is not copyrightable. No one in history have ever been sued for a single bit. No one has ended up in court for a one-bit GPL code. 2: If it get "outside" accidentally, there is a direct remedy that do not include releasing anything. You stop redistributing the program. Practically all GPL related lawsuits started with the words "please stop infringing my work", and when that did't work, "Judge, please stop them from infringing my work". The only companies that have ever been "forced" to do anything is when the option is between a full stop in production and sale, or releasing source code. One such company chose to not cut revenue, not stop production, and instead gave us the code which the OpenWrt project was created on. I wouldn't call that "forced". 3: Code do not transform from being non-GPL to GPL. That is not how copyright work. Code is only under GPL if you explicitly release a piece of code under GPL. If you put MIT code and gpl code together, the MIT will still be MIT. The combined work must explicitly be under GPL to be compliant, but you can still use the MIT code in isolation under MIT. The MIT code do not transform into different licenses just because you combine it with other code. Only explicit action counts, and the worst thing that can happen from code getting ‘outside’ in untended ways is copyright infringement where you legally have to stop distributing code.
  - lmm 9y ago
    > If one of your employees accidentally copies even a single bit of GPL-licensed code into your privately licensed code or statically links against such code even once, and it gets ‘outside’ in any way, you legally have to release that version of your code under the GPL. > With BSD-licensed code, that risk is way smaller. The worst you have to do is add a few (or quite a few thousand. Go check Setting/General/About/Legal for an example) attribution lines to the versions of your code that use the BSD-licensed code. Accidentally copying GPL-licensed code into non-GPL-licensed code puts you in exactly the same legal position as accidentally copying BSD-licensed code without attribution: you are now, technically, violating copyright, and in theory liable for statutory damages of $150,000. You're never forced to release your code under GPL; the GPL copyright holder might insist that you either release your code under GPL or pay the $150,000, but equally the BSD copyright holder might insist that you pay the $150,000 - they're within their rights to do that. In practice the author will most likely be willing to work with you to sort it out in either case. > Worse, the source code of all versions from _before_ that checkin automatically become GPL-licensed (because they contain code that, transitively, becomes GPL because it later was linked with GPL-licensed software) This is simply false.
- Fredej 9y ago
  The process was figuring out that we in no way mix any GPL code with our own code. As long as we don't do that it's fine but we still have to make sure every time we touch anything GPL'ed. My personal opinion is that it's because the term 'a work' which is used liberally in GPL is a legal term and can potentially be interpreted quite broadly. This means that we have to ensure - every time - that what we do does not constitute 'a work' which derives from GPL code - in the legal sense - if we do not want to distribute the source code that we create. With BSD we don't have to go through that process because it will not result in us losing control over our own software. We just need to stick a disclaimer in a license file and we're done.
craigsmansion 9y ago
> Deploying GPL code is a legal process. Deploying GPL code is only a legal process if you make it one. If you're using it to write or deploy other GPL software, it's pretty much a straight forward affair. And if you're not using a GPL license, well, that's your problem: there's nothing stopping you from using the GPL to make all the hassle go away.
- Fredej 9y ago
  That's true. Releasing other open source software using GPL software is much simpler. But if it's desirable to deploy closed source software GPL may not be the right choice unless you have time to sit down and consider the legal ramifications. In many cases there may be none if you use it in the right way but it should be and is being considered when companies decide consider whether or not to use open source software. That part is often significantly simpler with BSD which is why it's significantly easier to just allow BSD and have a case-by-case basis for GPL.
  - craigsmansion 9y ago
    > desirable to deploy closed source software Well, that's a peculiar desire. If a programmer wants to state "I do not want my code to be used in closed-source proprietary software" there's little more they can do than release under the GPL. There might be some good faith legal consultancy in seeing how, for example, the CDDL and the GPL interact, but for using GPL code in closed source products, the only excuse really is "What can I get away with?"
zeveb 9y ago
> Deploying GPL code is a legal process. It doesn't have to be. The GPL is very clear; anyone with even a semi-decent high school education can read and understand it. A company which requires legal consultation in order to know how to use GPL code has bigger problems. Of course, you can't both use GPLed code and deny your users' freedom. So don't do that. Sell hardware, sell services, just don't sell closed-source software.
- DanBC 9y ago
  > The GPL is very clear; anyone with even a semi-decent high school education can read and understand it. The amount of discussion on HN about the GPL, and whether a project is or isn't complying with it, makes me think it's not so easy.
  - zeveb 9y ago
    > The amount of discussion on HN about the GPL, and whether a project is or isn't complying with it, makes me think it's not so easy. I think it's not that the GPL is unclear; it's that people want to violate its provisions while not being held liable for their violations. 'We want three parallel red lines, one green and one black, all intersecting.'
- gpvos 9y ago
  The GPL may be very clear, but its interaction with the laws that are in force in your area may not be. As a (very) extreme example: I could write a license that says: if you use this code, you are now my slave. This license would not be valid in most jurisdictions; in fact, it might get me in jail. So, what you read in a license may or may not be true or enforceable.
davexunit 9y ago
I'm so tired of hearing this. The GPL is only a legal problem if you are trying to skirt the rules and distribute proprietary software but use GPL components. I've never needed to legal advice to deal with GPL code.
- ksk 9y ago
  > The GPL is only a legal problem if you are trying to skirt the rules and distribute proprietary software but use GPL components. Well, a random developer can't simply assert it - you need lawyers to make sure you really are conforming to the GPL. With BSD, you don't. This is simply the ground reality.
  - madez 9y ago
    That is not true. If a company does not follow the GPL and is called out, they can simply do what the GPL tells them to do and the case is done.
    - ksk 9y ago
      >That is not true. What are you basing this on? Personal experience? Speculation? Other? >If a company does not follow the GPL and is called out, they can simply do what the GPL tells them to do and the case is done. Ask Cisco if the lawsuit from the FSF was fictional. I was involved with the GPL license a few years back when I was consulting on an embedded hardware device product. We wrote to the developer and requested them to re-license the software in exchange for a payment. They refused and we decided to use a differently licensed product in the end, based on legal advice.
      - davexunit 9y ago
        So you wanted to write proprietary software on top of someone's GPL code, the developer couldn't be swayed by money, so now you are bitter about it? Talk about entitlement.
        9y ago
mcguire 9y ago
I have a suspicion that you need new lawyers. Having two different processes for two very common licenses seems a little off. The two cases aren't that different, legally. The GPL does require some extra work, but it's on the technical side, to make sure you're shipping all the source that you need to ship.
- Fredej 9y ago
  Just a single outside lawyer we consulted with :) We already had processes in place for dealing with BSD. The reason for consulting with a lawyer was to ensure that we didn't do anything wrong which would later require us to open up source code that we didn't want to open up.

belorn 9y ago

Writing new code also take time and money, which is why LGPL (including LGPLv3) is heavy in used in industries which have a lot of compeition and no time or money to waste. To take a example, I often see LGPLv3 in big AAA games. I also see licenses that say "we asked the developer in a email and received special permission". Game studies seems to happy spend legal advice time if it saves them developer time, and from where I stand it seems to be a clear competitive advantage to do so. The only licenses they don't use is those that conflict with their core business model.