3 ms·

Eh, probably. But on the other hand, there's no point in mentioning that a girl is a girl. It'd be conspicuously out of place to say "young male wunderkind." I

Eh, probably. But on the other hand, there's no point in mentioning that a girl is a girl. It'd be conspicuously out of place to say "young male wunderkind." I agree that it's pointless to go on like this. I didn't mean to put anyone on the spot or call anyone out. It's actually just been on my mind lately, and I've been looking for an excuse to talk about some of this stuff openly. It seems like an important conversation to have, but there aren't many opportunities or contexts to have it without attracting trolls.

dvt 9y ago
> But on the other hand, there's no point in mentioning that a girl is a girl. Agreed, that's why I think it was weird to bring it up. Plus, we all know who Elizabeth Holmes is; we all know she's a girl -- why mention it? I guess it was kind of salient that she was a woman. No idea.
- sillysaurus3 9y ago
  You touched on an interesting point: it's pretty well-known that in startup circles being a woman is, generally speaking, a net negative. The reason I spoke up originally is because where I'm located, it's very common to believe the exact opposite. It's become something of a trope: "Better respect women or the thought police will get you!" (said in a dismissive tone) I don't know if I'm just living in a weird area, but that seems to be the default sentiment across the last N companies I've worked for. It's either treated as a joke or not discussed. And then of course there are pockets of people with the exact opposite feelings, but they often go so far in the other direction that it's hard to take them seriously. There's some space between being completely dismissive and hyperventilating about women being oppressed, and I thought the latter was a myth until I saw it in practice. So it's just really hard to figure out, y'know? It's not something that we generally get to talk about. It's socially weird to bring it up with strangers or publicly, so you're very likely to believe whatever the people around you happen to believe. So how do you determine whether your beliefs reflect reality?
  - dvt 9y ago
    > The reason I spoke up originally is because where I'm located, it's very common to believe the exact opposite. It's become something of a trope: "Better respect women or the thought police will get you!" (said in a dismissive tone) I think this is a reactionary counter-attack by the hardline anti-SJW crowd. Don't get me wrong, I'm not in complete agreement with the ultra-(socially-)liberal SJW gamergate-style movements; however, if we're not lying to ourselves, it's fairly obvious being a woman in tech is not great. So you have nutty guys like Google's Damore who actually believe exactly what you're saying: that men are somehow being discriminated against because the powers that be are trying to slightly tip the scales in favor of women. Which is completely crazy to begin with, given that if you're an engineer at a tech company, you're already making like ~$100k+ which puts you in the top ~10% of US earners. > So it's just really hard to figure out, y'know? It's not something that we generally get to talk about. It's socially weird to bring it up with strangers or publicly, so you're very likely to believe whatever the people around you happen to believe. So how do you determine whether your beliefs reflect reality? This is a hard question and don't really have any answers. I studied philosophy in college and we talked about all kinds of controversial issues (abortion, affirmative action, gay rights, etc.) My theory is that most engineers just aren't mentally equipped with the tools required to make sound social judgments, e.g. being well-read in ethics or social theory, so debates or a friendly clash of ideas often end up being fruitless and awkward.
    - sillysaurus3 9y ago
      This is a hard question and don't really have any answers. I studied philosophy in college and we talked about all kinds of controversial issues (abortion, affirmative action, gay rights, etc.) My theory is that most engineers just aren't mentally equipped with the tools required to make sound social judgments, e.g. being well-read in ethics or social theory, so debates or a friendly clash of ideas often end up being fruitless and awkward. This is an interesting observation. A lot of flamewars could be as simple as that. If one were inclined to equip themselves, what would you do? It's very rare to have the opportunity to attend a philosophy class, and a lot of philosophy students tend to take it much too seriously. It's serious topics, but almost everyone who studies philosophy ends up feeling elevated over those who don't. This is remarkably ineffective when trying to persuade people to your way of thinking. So I'm interested in what to study for my own purposes, and then try to integrate those concepts into my day to day life. What would you recommend?

dvt 9y ago

> But on the other hand, there's no point in mentioning that a girl is a girl. Agreed, that's why I think it was weird to bring it up. Plus, we all know who Elizabeth Holmes is; we all know she's a girl -- why mention it? I guess it was kind of salient that she was a woman. No idea.

sillysaurus3 9y ago
You touched on an interesting point: it's pretty well-known that in startup circles being a woman is, generally speaking, a net negative. The reason I spoke up originally is because where I'm located, it's very common to believe the exact opposite. It's become something of a trope: "Better respect women or the thought police will get you!" (said in a dismissive tone) I don't know if I'm just living in a weird area, but that seems to be the default sentiment across the last N companies I've worked for. It's either treated as a joke or not discussed. And then of course there are pockets of people with the exact opposite feelings, but they often go so far in the other direction that it's hard to take them seriously. There's some space between being completely dismissive and hyperventilating about women being oppressed, and I thought the latter was a myth until I saw it in practice. So it's just really hard to figure out, y'know? It's not something that we generally get to talk about. It's socially weird to bring it up with strangers or publicly, so you're very likely to believe whatever the people around you happen to believe. So how do you determine whether your beliefs reflect reality?
- dvt 9y ago
  > The reason I spoke up originally is because where I'm located, it's very common to believe the exact opposite. It's become something of a trope: "Better respect women or the thought police will get you!" (said in a dismissive tone) I think this is a reactionary counter-attack by the hardline anti-SJW crowd. Don't get me wrong, I'm not in complete agreement with the ultra-(socially-)liberal SJW gamergate-style movements; however, if we're not lying to ourselves, it's fairly obvious being a woman in tech is not great. So you have nutty guys like Google's Damore who actually believe exactly what you're saying: that men are somehow being discriminated against because the powers that be are trying to slightly tip the scales in favor of women. Which is completely crazy to begin with, given that if you're an engineer at a tech company, you're already making like ~$100k+ which puts you in the top ~10% of US earners. > So it's just really hard to figure out, y'know? It's not something that we generally get to talk about. It's socially weird to bring it up with strangers or publicly, so you're very likely to believe whatever the people around you happen to believe. So how do you determine whether your beliefs reflect reality? This is a hard question and don't really have any answers. I studied philosophy in college and we talked about all kinds of controversial issues (abortion, affirmative action, gay rights, etc.) My theory is that most engineers just aren't mentally equipped with the tools required to make sound social judgments, e.g. being well-read in ethics or social theory, so debates or a friendly clash of ideas often end up being fruitless and awkward.
  - sillysaurus3 9y ago
    This is a hard question and don't really have any answers. I studied philosophy in college and we talked about all kinds of controversial issues (abortion, affirmative action, gay rights, etc.) My theory is that most engineers just aren't mentally equipped with the tools required to make sound social judgments, e.g. being well-read in ethics or social theory, so debates or a friendly clash of ideas often end up being fruitless and awkward. This is an interesting observation. A lot of flamewars could be as simple as that. If one were inclined to equip themselves, what would you do? It's very rare to have the opportunity to attend a philosophy class, and a lot of philosophy students tend to take it much too seriously. It's serious topics, but almost everyone who studies philosophy ends up feeling elevated over those who don't. This is remarkably ineffective when trying to persuade people to your way of thinking. So I'm interested in what to study for my own purposes, and then try to integrate those concepts into my day to day life. What would you recommend?