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If you unplugged the government's board (or given decision-making apparatus) and plugged in a (currently nonexistent) AI with the parameter "Maximize Power of G

If you unplugged the government's board (or given decision-making apparatus) and plugged in a (currently nonexistent) AI with the parameter "Maximize Power of Government," would you see a different result? I think not. ----- My point is that you are implying government is the alternative ("they will govern morally! academics will keep them in check! journalists will keep them in check!") then you need to rethink your conclusions

sp332 9y ago
If it's some kind of representative government, then it would be "the government will push back on anything that threatens the interests of the majority." If you had a power-maximizing AI instead of politicians, it should still court voters.
MisterBastahrd 9y ago
Your reply is pure libertarian silliness. The government hasn't remotely maximized its power.
aaron-lebo 9y ago
Didn't see that implication. Isn't the more obvious solution to have a mixture of effective government and business? We're not talking about going from capitalism to communism, we're asking one of the wealthiest companies in the world to pay their fair share of taxes like the person making $40k does. It's not either or.
klodolph 9y ago
How are you inferring that government is the alternative? I don't see that implication.
jimmaswell 9y ago
Tighter corporate tax regulations as a slippery slope to government oppression? I'm not seeing it.
komali2 9y ago
>if you are implying government is the alternative I implied nothing on purpose, though I understand people will find meaning in other's words on their own. What sort of solutions do you have in mind, if not governmental? Or do you not think solutions are necessary (that this isn't a problem)?
javajosh 9y ago
Government, by definition, has total power over it's space. That power is systematically reduced by the law (every positive individual right is a restriction on government). Reductions (law) are enacted by the people (in the US, the members of Congress are "the people"). If we can speak, if we can vote, then we have, theoretically, the ability to set the dial of government power anywhere from 0 (Somalia) to totality (North Korea). There are obvious constraints on this slider. Set the slider too low, and a weak government is vulnerable to take-over. Set too high, the people are oppressed, unhappy, and will revolt. The West's slider is pretty firmly in the middle, although it's uneven from policy to policy (it's set very low on gun ownership; it's set very high on commercial flying). The US Federal government could acquire far more power in a variety of ways. For example, they could federalize local law-enforcement. They could run drones within our borders, for both surveillance and assassinations. They could outlaw independent media and control all media output (a la Russia). They could require us all to carry Federal ID and require us to show this ID to any law-enforcement on-demand, for any reason. They could require us to run special DRM/tracking software in our smartphones, and fine/jail us if we remove it.
- pmyteh 9y ago
  Government, by definition, has a monopoly on the legitimate use of force within its territory. But it doesn't (even in theory) have total control over its space. It's constrained by its ability to fund and apply force (military dictatorships aren't inherently stable), by its relationships with stakeholders both inside and outside its borders, and to some extent by the consent (or at least the acquiescence) of its public. To put it in a more concrete sense, the government can decide to tax whisky at a rate of $1m per barrel. But it almost certainly doesn't have the power to enforce this against moonshiners, rights and law or otherwise.
Frondo 9y ago
We The People don't have any other suitable mechanisms to reign in businesses. I'm a citizen first, and a buyer of stuff and owner of shares a distant, distant second. The laws, that I get to, in at least some way, help craft as a citizen of a country are the only real voice I can meaningfully exert, far more than a boycott or trying to buy shares and sit on a board. And that's a power every voter has. Heck yeah I want to maximize the government's power to make a better life for me and everyone else--the corp's not looking out for us, but we are.

sp332 9y ago

If it's some kind of representative government, then it would be "the government will push back on anything that threatens the interests of the majority." If you had a power-maximizing AI instead of politicians, it should still court voters.

MisterBastahrd 9y ago

Your reply is pure libertarian silliness. The government hasn't remotely maximized its power.

aaron-lebo 9y ago

Didn't see that implication. Isn't the more obvious solution to have a mixture of effective government and business? We're not talking about going from capitalism to communism, we're asking one of the wealthiest companies in the world to pay their fair share of taxes like the person making $40k does. It's not either or.

klodolph 9y ago

How are you inferring that government is the alternative? I don't see that implication.

jimmaswell 9y ago

Tighter corporate tax regulations as a slippery slope to government oppression? I'm not seeing it.

komali2 9y ago

>if you are implying government is the alternative I implied nothing on purpose, though I understand people will find meaning in other's words on their own. What sort of solutions do you have in mind, if not governmental? Or do you not think solutions are necessary (that this isn't a problem)?

javajosh 9y ago

Government, by definition, has total power over it's space. That power is systematically reduced by the law (every positive individual right is a restriction on government). Reductions (law) are enacted by the people (in the US, the members of Congress are "the people"). If we can speak, if we can vote, then we have, theoretically, the ability to set the dial of government power anywhere from 0 (Somalia) to totality (North Korea). There are obvious constraints on this slider. Set the slider too low, and a weak government is vulnerable to take-over. Set too high, the people are oppressed, unhappy, and will revolt. The West's slider is pretty firmly in the middle, although it's uneven from policy to policy (it's set very low on gun ownership; it's set very high on commercial flying). The US Federal government could acquire far more power in a variety of ways. For example, they could federalize local law-enforcement. They could run drones within our borders, for both surveillance and assassinations. They could outlaw independent media and control all media output (a la Russia). They could require us all to carry Federal ID and require us to show this ID to any law-enforcement on-demand, for any reason. They could require us to run special DRM/tracking software in our smartphones, and fine/jail us if we remove it.

pmyteh 9y ago
Government, by definition, has a monopoly on the legitimate use of force within its territory. But it doesn't (even in theory) have total control over its space. It's constrained by its ability to fund and apply force (military dictatorships aren't inherently stable), by its relationships with stakeholders both inside and outside its borders, and to some extent by the consent (or at least the acquiescence) of its public. To put it in a more concrete sense, the government can decide to tax whisky at a rate of $1m per barrel. But it almost certainly doesn't have the power to enforce this against moonshiners, rights and law or otherwise.

Frondo 9y ago

We The People don't have any other suitable mechanisms to reign in businesses. I'm a citizen first, and a buyer of stuff and owner of shares a distant, distant second. The laws, that I get to, in at least some way, help craft as a citizen of a country are the only real voice I can meaningfully exert, far more than a boycott or trying to buy shares and sit on a board. And that's a power every voter has. Heck yeah I want to maximize the government's power to make a better life for me and everyone else--the corp's not looking out for us, but we are.